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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 24, 2014 1:35:23 GMT
Wait till you meet the YV and Verge(Sp?).
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 24, 2014 16:04:14 GMT
Wait till you meet the YV and Verge(Sp?). Bloody hell do I ever intend to avoid that sh*t like it comes with a free case of the plague... Space sadomasochist bat aliens? The dreaded Sith parakeet? More stories involving the incredibly-annoying Jacen and Jaina Solo? F*CK THAT NOISE. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 24, 2014 18:48:17 GMT
I like Jaina.  And you gotta read through there, so you have an idea of what's going on 'after'. lol Loooots of books in your future. |
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 24, 2014 19:17:16 GMT
I like Jaina. And you gotta read through there, so you have an idea of what's going on 'after'. lol Loooots of books in your future. My brief exposure to Jaina and her brother really left a bad taste in my mouth... the Young Jedi Knights books were freaking TERRIBLE. Having them show up in the Thrawn trilogy is at least tolerable, if only because they can't speak. (One of my pet peeves with really long, shared universe stories like this is when every plot has to revolve around either the same handful of popular characters from the most iconic title or their friends and close relatives. I've also never really understood the compulsion Star Wars seems to have with giving EVERY one-line character a massive and entirely overwrought backstory.) |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 24, 2014 20:07:08 GMT
Well the kid's books are written for kids. *shrugs* It's not high prose.
Really Mike... not to be mean or anything, but you seem to go into this pretty bitchy. You don't like universes that have consistent characters, where the plot revolves around them? Do you want random nobodies all the time?
You make statements like "I've also never really understood the compulsion Star Wars seems to have with giving every one line character a massive and entirely overwrought backstory"
I thought you were just getting into Star Wars? How are you making statements like that? Or like the ones above bitching about all the politics and different ruling bodies and what not, if you're brand new to the material? They seem like gripes of someone that's read a number of the books over a variety of time frames and what not that can compare and contrast.
The characters have back story like that, because that's what Star Wars fans love. Massive and overwrought backstory for every little character, because different people like different characters.
I myself like Corran Horn and Mara Jade. Some other people like Hammer. Some like Dash. Some Kyp. Star Wars is great for feeding all these fans the big heaping dish of what they want to consume. Now granted they may or may not like the flavor when they consume it, but it's there.
Being 100% honest, it sounds like you don't like Star Wars, asked for some books to 'Start with'.... to have something to Nitpick. If you've got enough a frame of reference to compare and contrast different era's of galactic politics in the stories and make sweeping statements about them, and have read the Young Jedi Knights books, books meant for.. 7 to 10 year olds and are critiquing them....
~~~
That being said, Jacen is a douchetwaddle. He just is. For much of his history he was the "I'm going to be a pacifist and hug animals type" Which... we like animals (Most of us) So it had it's moments but it was kinda annoying. Then he goes off on his little pilgrimage and comes back arrogant. Then the stuff in the YV war happens and they try and paint him like he's going to be what bridges the Force. Which comes off a little, pardon the pun, forced. Then the 9-11 stuff happens and the books take a darker tone and Jacen basically turns to Vader 2.0, and has to be wacked by his own sister.
If you don't like the Solo Kids, be reassured. When it's all said and done. Only one of them is still alive and by far the least annoying of the trio.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 24, 2014 21:03:48 GMT
Well the kid's books are written for kids. *shrugs* It's not high prose. I know... remember, when I encountered them I was a kid. Even back then, I thought the Solo kids were very annoying. Really Mike... not to be mean or anything, but you seem to go into this pretty bitchy. To be fair, man, I didn't exactly make much secret of the fact that I am not a Star Wars fan back in the topic post. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was the first thing I said after my little disclaimer. It's not my cup of tea, but my group wants me to GM a Star Wars game and I'm not going to say no just because it's not my favorite thing ever. You don't like universes that have consistent characters, where the plot revolves around them? Do you want random nobodies all the time? Let me clarify that point of mine. It's not that I don't like recurring characters... but it feels PAINFULLY unnatural when every major event seems to revolve around the same handful of characters and their immediate families, friends, etc. In huge settings like Star Wars, even high-level political figures can't be at the center of EVERYTHING the galaxy does. (This is not a complaint I reserve purely for Star Wars. I've leveled the same at both Star Trek and Robotech. It takes away from the "bigness" of the universe when the stories so often revolve around the same handful of people, their direct descendants, their best friends, etc. If the galaxy is BIG, it should FEEL big. There should be room for stories that aren't related to just the places and people we've already seen.) You make statements like "I've also never really understood the compulsion Star Wars seems to have with giving every one line character a massive and entirely overwrought backstory" I thought you were just getting into Star Wars? How are you making statements like that? I've been doing a LOT (and I do mean A LOT!) of preparatory reading for that game. I've already practically finished the Thrawn trilogy twice through, and I've been devouring around forty or fifty articles from the Star Wars wiki about chronology, continuity, and technology daily. The patterns really start to stand out when you're reviewing this stuff at speed and taking notes. The enthusiastic help of my friends in giving me material to go over has also made certain aspects of the story stand out. (Plus I also found my copies of the Tales from books, which were pretty much that and nothing else...) Or like the ones above bitching about all the politics and different ruling bodies and what not, if you're brand new to the material? They seem like gripes of someone that's read a number of the books over a variety of time frames and what not that can compare and contrast. I was entirely honest in my VERY short list of what I've read, books-wise, and watched. But I've been doing quite a bit of reading since then, both to get context for the Thrawn Trilogy as I read it, and to gain the necessary insight into the setting my players want to game in. The characters have back story like that, because that's what Star Wars fans love. Massive and overwrought backstory for every little character, because different people like different characters. If the characters actually play a role in the story, it's one thing... but it seems a bit excessive to put that much effort into "Background alien bar patron number 47". Give me more backstory of the people whose actions led to the events we see, and I'll snap it up. Spend that same energy telling me about that ugly bartender's efforts to grind corpses into alcohol and I'll wonder why the author even bothered. I myself like Corran Horn and Mara Jade. Some other people like Hammer. Some like Dash. Some Kyp. Star Wars is great for feeding all these fans the big heaping dish of what they want to consume. Now granted they may or may not like the flavor when they consume it, but it's there. Mara Jade is probably one of the few Star Wars characters I can say I actually LIKE. I'm more or less ambivalent towards the majority of 'em, but Mara Jade stands apart because she's NOT the chosen one or some veteran smuggler, effortlessly cool-headed Jedi knight, a princess with decades of political training, etc. She's the closest I've yet encountered to Joe Average... and that makes her instantly more relateable than half of 'em to me. Being 100% honest, it sounds like you don't like Star Wars, asked for some books to 'Start with'.... to have something to Nitpick. I was pretty clear about my reasons at the start of the thread, actually... it strikes me as being a little unfair to complain about it now when I gave you ample notice of my lack of affection for Star Wars and my reasons for studying it at the outset. [...] Then the 9-11 stuff happens and the books take a darker tone and Jacen basically turns to Vader 2.0, and has to be wacked by his own sister. My affection for Jaina Solo increased at least threefold when I read that last part. I suppose the dark stuff is in the parts I've not yet gotten to... |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 24, 2014 21:21:12 GMT
Legacy of the Force series is where Jacen goes dark side. Anakin dies about halfway through the New Jedi Order series though he is said to actually be the most powerful of the three.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 24, 2014 23:21:54 GMT
Legacy of the Force series is where Jacen goes dark side. Anakin dies about halfway through the New Jedi Order series though he is said to actually be the most powerful of the three. ... named him Anakin. The Solo family clearly likes to tempt fate. Anyway... my experience with Star Wars has not been all bad or all criticism-based. I thought Grand Admiral Thrawn was probably the thing that saved the whole Thrawn Trilogy from being mediocre and propelled it to at least "above average". To me, Thrawn probably could've carried that entire series himself without the need to have that crazy clone Jedi banging around in the background. He stands a cut above C'baoth and even the Emperor as a villain, entirely because of who and what he is. Villains who are complete monsters aren't really scary in this day in age, they're more appropriate to Disney movies and super sentai shows. The most horrifying kind of monster is the kind you think you could stand to have a drink with. Thrawn makes an effective villain precisely because he ISN'T a complete monster. He's a man, an affable, erudite man beloved of his people. He values his army's lives, and tries to take worlds with the minimum possible loss of life on both sides. He does all these things that are the hallmarks of a morally upright and generally "good guy" type character... and yet he subjugates worlds, kills thousands, leaves people to inevitable and entirely unavoidable deaths, and does many more horrifying things without batting an eye. He has the blood of thousands on his hands, but otherwise he's the sort of guy you could have for a neighbor. It's precisely that disconnect between his affable nature and his horrible actions that makes him such an impressive villain and makes what he does shocking. A monster that looks like a monster at first sight isn't all that scary, but when you only notice it's a monster after you've sat down to lunch with it... that's where it's a profound shock. Not just that, but his very existence neatly underlines what a horrible regime the Empire was. It made a monster of even the very people it was ostensibly oppressing and then turned that monster loose on the galaxy. You could've completely taken C'baoth out of the story and Thrawn could've carried the plot without an ounce of difficulty. Killing him was such a waste. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 25, 2014 2:53:32 GMT
C'baoth was needed for the clone coordination and effective tactical advantage. he was a 'tool'. An imperfect one but a tool none the less.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 25, 2014 4:08:46 GMT
C'baoth was needed for the clone coordination and effective tactical advantage. he was a 'tool'. An imperfect one but a tool none the less. Yeah, I know... but the story sets him up like he's a villain on par with Grand Admiral Thrawn, and he signally fails to deliver on that villainous promise. As villains go, Thrawn is top class, so it's not altogether surprising that he overshadows C'baoth in the books. The problem with C'baoth as an antagonist is that he's not actually malicious in any meaningful sense. He's violent and erratic, but he's not a Sith Lord or even a real Dark Jedi... he's just mentally ill. It's hard to really credit him with genuine malice or evil ambitions when he's got a head full of busted wiring thanks to either his creation as a clone or his knowledge that he was, in fact, a clone. Taken in that context, his casual violence and occasional use of dark side powers while still believing himself to be the last heir to the Jedi order seem more like an increasingly damaged mind trying desperately to impose a sense of order on the world around it instead of the malice of a true villain. To me, not being truly culpable for his actions due to mental illness kind of damages C'baoth's credibility as an antagonist in the trilogy. I think the books would actually have been stronger without him, or with a more sane-and-logical dark sider (even if it was a small fry like one of the other Emperor's Hands or a cloned Obi-Wan the way they'd originally planned). |
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 28, 2014 0:30:53 GMT
So, here's a random question for anybody who wants to field it...
Apart from the ysalamiri, who aren't sentient or even sapient, is there any form of life in the SW universe that acts like the pariahs from WH40K? I'm talking someone or some thing that's like an anti-force user, not merely absent in the force but actively canceling out use of the force in its general area?
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 28, 2014 0:45:58 GMT
Not that I am aware of. The vong are sort of anti-force/null-force but they do not actually cancel out the ability to use it per se.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 28, 2014 0:58:41 GMT
Not that I am aware of. The vong are sort of anti-force/null-force but they do not actually cancel out the ability to use it per se. Ah, that's kinda disappointing... I was hoping I'd be able to maybe throw the occasional rare "elite" mook at the players who's the Star Wars equivalent of WH40K's blanks or pariahs, someone who's pretty much immune to the force and cancels it out in their immediate vicinity. |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 28, 2014 1:09:26 GMT
Well there are some races that are not affected by the force to one degree or another.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 28, 2014 1:48:41 GMT
The further forward into the NJO timeframe, the more the ysalamiri, get out/known a bit more.
They're not thick on the ground or anything, but even the Jedi keep some around to help contain force sensitive threats. I.E. in their own personal Jail, they surround Jedi Prisioners with them.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 28, 2014 18:13:12 GMT
The further forward into the NJO timeframe, the more the ysalamiri, get out/known a bit more. They're not thick on the ground or anything, but even the Jedi keep some around to help contain force sensitive threats. I.E. in their own personal Jail, they surround Jedi Prisioners with them. Huh... so someone in the Jedi Order is dangerously genre savvy. Maybe I'll just come up with something that meets my needs and invoke a Star Wars version of "A wizard did it"... Sith Alchemy did it. The way I'm kind of aiming the story I'm developing, I wanted to have the players get caught up between their pursuers in the New Jedi Order/New Republic and a renegade former Imperial Admiral-turned-Warlord's private crusade against the Republic. Our boy Saint Palpatine seems to have had a lot of secret warehouses and development labs scattered around the galaxy, so maybe he's had some apprentice or something somewhere tinkering with Sith alchemy who spliced the ysalamiri effect into a humanoid or human... or maybe found some kind of technological force-damper. (One thing I must admit I do like about the Yuuzhan Vong bit is that the Jedi had to think out of the box... I'm hoping to force my players to do the same, so it's not just a litany of "force push" followed by lightsaber swinging.) |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 28, 2014 19:15:03 GMT
well.....there are Vornskrs...they prey primary on force users if given the opporutnity since they can sense it. You may have noticed them in the Thrawn Trilogy.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 28, 2014 20:31:33 GMT
IIRC, there are a few other creatures that are the same way. Especially if you go to the old Sith controlled worlds... Or I don't think you can just "force push" or lightsaber through a force ghost....
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 30, 2014 1:08:59 GMT
First session is tentatively scheduled for 2/3...
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 30, 2014 3:05:31 GMT
Monday? Cool. What version did you decide to go with?
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 30, 2014 15:36:29 GMT
Monday? Cool. What version did you decide to go with? West End's Revised and Expanded edition of the Star Wars RPG. |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 30, 2014 15:40:56 GMT
Ah...excellent choice in my opinion.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 30, 2014 15:45:58 GMT
Yesss yeassss.come to the dark side
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 30, 2014 18:50:23 GMT
Yesss yeassss.come to the dark side Didn't have a heck of a lot of choice, honestly... the most recent version of the RPG is kind of lacking when it comes to anything force-related, and of all of 'em the West End game seems to make playing a runny-jumpy force-wieldy character the easiest, so that clinched it pretty decisively with my players wanting to get their laser sword on. All told, I think that the plot I'm going to go with will involve the Jedi Knight-Apprentice player group having to flee the Academy and run into the forces of an Imperial warlord out on the galaxy's edge. I reckon it's not too far outside the bounds of canon to have said warlord have one of Palpatine's former force-sensitive gofers proficient in Sith Alchemy try to "enhance" stormtroopers and the regular army into force-repelling superhumans with mixed results. |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 30, 2014 18:54:18 GMT
Yesss yeassss.come to the dark side Didn't have a heck of a lot of choice, honestly... the most recent version of the RPG is kind of lacking when it comes to anything force-related, and of all of 'em the West End game seems to make playing a runny-jumpy force-wieldy character the easiest, so that clinched it pretty decisively with my players wanting to get their laser sword on. All told, I think that the plot I'm going to go with will involve the Jedi Knight-Apprentice player group having to flee the Academy and run into the forces of an Imperial warlord out on the galaxy's edge. I reckon it's not too far outside the bounds of canon to have said warlord have one of Palpatine's former force-sensitive gofers proficient in Sith Alchemy try to "enhance" stormtroopers and the regular army into force-repelling superhumans with mixed results. Bery nice. Keep us appraised of how it goes? |
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 30, 2014 19:14:37 GMT
Bery nice. Keep us appraised of how it goes? Sure thing... though I imagine the first few sessions are going to be a little clumsy as I get to grips with a different system and a setting I'm still not exactly entirely familiar with. |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 30, 2014 19:20:02 GMT
It's all good. If you have any system questions feel free to ask. We may be out of practice but I am sure we can get you the answer you may be looking for.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 31, 2014 3:55:40 GMT
Not to mention that we (well, at least *I*, and probably Jaymz) have a bunch of the material and books/additions to be able to help you out.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Jan 31, 2014 4:31:57 GMT
I have... a few....  |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 31, 2014 12:01:28 GMT
Not to mention that we (well, at least *I*, and probably Jaymz) have a bunch of the material and books/additions to be able to help you out. I gave him a link to a site that has pretty much every d6 Star Wars book readily available as free pdf. |
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