colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160 
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 9, 2013 6:32:59 GMT
Palladium Books® Weekly Update – June 7, 2012 This was Kevin's research into the Mini's game. but Kevin actually did research and found this to be a very unpopular Idea among his limited customer base. When he took the Chance with this Ninja Division group and did a Robotech Mini's Kickstarter... they had the humble goal of $70,000. a high goal considering only 20-30% of his relatively tiny fan base was even interested in this most unpopular idea.  The Kickstarter was a mild success, thou some critical of the success had said it wasn't actually successful at all. 1.4 Million Dollars for plastic minis, that only 20-30% of his tiny dwindling fan base was interested in... his polling data came from asking people who paid to hang out with him at Open house, and People who paid money for Kevin to Call them via Insider. upwards of a few hundred people at most, since IDK the average number of Open house attendees. (if someone knows the open house 2012 counts, id like them) Somehow 5000+ people pledged about $270 USD to support a project that only 20-30% of his fan base desired. Worst Part is Kevin actually looked at his Market, his fan base and did research, and if he had followed the research estimates, he would have been justified not to move forward on a unpopular project like the Mini's game, a project that would drain his already limited time resources. he would have been justified to look at the already dwindiling sales numbers for table top RPGs and know that it wasn't a good idea to invest in a unpopular project like the Robotech Minis. Sometimes actual research data is proven wrong... its even worse when you won't do any research on a topic.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 9, 2013 6:59:51 GMT
The veracity of the 'polling data' has been questioned. People that attended the open house have said they were never questioned or spoke on any of the topics that appeared in the poll, and others, myself included, have pointed out that when you poll people who work for you, and who's pay checks you sign, people that, as you put it, have traveled to play and hang out with you, in a 'palladium only" con, and your friends and family, you get skewed results.
When it was questioned, he actually came back and flamed on the forums in response.
Believe him or not. Just pointing out that at the time it was very much in question, and when brought into question Kevin replied back quite agitated and depending on your definition, hostile towards the fan base.
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 9, 2013 7:31:56 GMT
Kevin Said:
@sci-Fi I agree, his methods and data was highly questionable, and lead to his verbal attack toward Jorel.
its just the topic of Market Research is one I'm unusually interested in. and Kevin's methods show that even the most "in depth" research can yield unexpected results.
but you are right, I was one of the few who also said that asking you employees for unbiased information, or asking people who pay to hang out with you isn't going to give you much beyond a bunch of yes-men.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 9, 2013 7:37:23 GMT
I sort of took the 'six weeks' with a grain of salt. perhaps 6 weeks, pertaining to "There was some lead up to the open house and I asked the 6 people that worked here during that"
I do not how ever think that there was 6 full weeks of time spent on the research. I'd be very surprised if there was 6 hours of research done.
Remember, Kevin has a very..... how's a nice way to put it... Malleable and varying relationship with time and time frames.
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 9, 2013 7:54:17 GMT
I sort of took the 'six weeks' with a grain of salt. perhaps 6 weeks, pertaining to "There was some lead up to the open house and I asked the 6 people that worked here during that" I do not how ever think that there was 6 full weeks of time spent on the research. I'd be very surprised if there was 6 hours of research done. Remember, Kevin has a very..... how's a nice way to put it... Malleable and varying relationship with time and time frames. my last post in the PDF topic is a clear indication of the kevins understanding of a time table... |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 9, 2013 20:07:49 GMT
Kevin did not ask me a single question when it came to any research at the open house. Then again I was one of the only people that told him his vision of dead reign was garbage to his face. Kevin doesn't do research ever, research is based on his opinion with a few questions lobbed toward close personal friends. Even if someone said "miniatures is a great idea even, I don't play many but I like the idea" he would take the answer as a "no" the answer he wants to hear.
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 9, 2013 20:57:57 GMT
I was one if the benefactors on lemuria so I remember most of the questions he asked. He did ask about the rifts and robotech minis and I said rifts minis only if they had a decent system for them and robotech minis only if they would do all 3era's. In the phone he did say that if they did minis they would support all parts of the robotech story..
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Post by kryptt on Dec 9, 2013 23:14:45 GMT
I haven't had a PB product since the early 90's. So I had no idea how bad things were with PB. Not till the RRT ks was over and in the following weeks/months that all the dirty laundry began to seep out. What really opened my eyes was this. rosswatson.blogspot.com/2012/06/palladium-time-is-now.htmlWhen I read how Kevin conducted his "research" I thought it was ridiculous because the results are biased and not realistic. The way things are currently unfolding isn't helping matters either. Even now as the last update had no manufacturing info the defenders are out because some of us disagree with the way PB is handling the updates. I'm glad they finally picked a winner but now it feels like we'er being trolled. Kevin mentioned that Jeff and Wayne were talking to ND for two hours. So their meeting was about the contest winner? Come on guys I know you can do better than that. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 9, 2013 23:44:38 GMT
If it took 2 hours to pick a winner.. well. I'll keep ny opinion on that to not offend the winner.
Now if they talked ti them about getting the Damn game out... should been a 3 hour call.
Problem is Kevin tries to make a research effort. I wish other people involved would actually feign research....
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 10, 2013 0:35:22 GMT
What they really need to do is hire a Market Research Specialist
S/he should have at least two semesters worth of statistics/statistical analysis, and at least two semester in market analysis and/or similar. S/he should be a gamer. Could be a part time position, or even on an "as per" basis- working only on specific topics, then being off work until the next question comes up.
PB: We keep having people suggest the idea of minis. What's the REAL popularity level of that?
MR: Well, give me about 3 weeks of hitting various gamer boards, gathering direct responses as well as reading the wording of others, add up the numbers, and give you a response. What is the SPECIFIC ideas behind the minis? One setting? Multiple? All over the place? Are we talking an actual minis game, or just minis to use while playing with the normal ruleset? These are questions people will be asking before they respond, so I have to know...
PB: Ummm... we haven't gotten that far. All we know is a few people scream "MINIS!"...
MR: Make it 4 weeks, and let me see what I can find out..
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 6:01:54 GMT
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 7:21:29 GMT
I like that he mentions the Kevin v. WOTC lawsuit... its the main reason that ,after being bullied, the tiny company WotC developed Richard Garfield's Idea for a simple card game into Magic: the Gathering... and after years of Kevin and Maryann claiming that Magic and CCG's as a whole were a fad that would Die soon... and believing so, I was shocked to see this at Walmart last week...  you could maybe say... that Kevin's Lawsuit... Saved D&D... without investing in Magic, WOTC might have stayed a tiny company like Palladium and never had made the capital to buy the Bankrupt (Morally and Financially) TSR... i could Imagine his "research" that thought CCG's were a fad... He asked Alex, and the other guy who worked for him... they all said they don't play it, so he was sure that it wasn't gonna be successful... |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 11, 2013 7:24:23 GMT
They think PDFs/Ebooks are a fad too...
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 7:35:18 GMT
They think PDFs/Ebooks are a fad too... yeah, maybe they are.... harder for me to photograph the PDF's... thou I'm not sure what a Nook, Kindle, Ipad or Tablet is for... but they have like 50 different ones at best buy... :/ interesting... neither store has Rifts books... not even the book stores have them.. or the gaming store... ------- This is where i feel Palladium is headed... the same Road 90's TSR was... just without the bad management who did it on purpose... Ryan S. Dancey on WOTC's acquisition of TSRRead the entire thing... I don't agree with everything RSD writes on his facebook... but this somber story hurt me to the core... |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 11, 2013 14:35:14 GMT
Sounds sadly famiar
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 16:33:08 GMT
I agree that listening to the fan base is a requirement.
Problem is what do you do when the majority of your fan base cannot agree on the direction you should take?
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 16:55:24 GMT
I agree that listening to the fan base is a requirement. Problem is what do you do when the majority of your fan base cannot agree on the direction you should take? you realise the status quo isn't working and look at the input fans have made and be creative. its not the fan's job to write the books for him. if he honestly feels that what we have is the best he can do, then he can reap what he sows and die slowly. Even a new player can tell the books are poorly laid out per: palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=122493&p=2451707#p2451707 and need some work... |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 17:12:22 GMT
Agreed.
But as the 4 change threads (started by PB staff) prove the only thing the majority agrees on is the desire for a system update.
What needs updated no two persons can agree on.
That is why they chose to do nothing. (sadly)
If we want to see any sort of change we have to get the majority to agree on more than just "change!"
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 17:41:21 GMT
Customer's don't run the company, Kevin does, if he can't see the same issues that the Customers do, then he is purposefully blind to the problems.
Alex started his Rules thread well before Kevin did his "Market research" among Yes-men and employees, so no doubt any talk of updates was halted in his mind when he decided 90% of his customers think things are perfect as is.
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 11, 2013 17:50:15 GMT
The rules change threads were not needed (at least not four different ones) they have heard that people want a streamlining and rewording of the rules and a core palladium rule book. If they wait for 100% of the fans to agree on 100% of the changes needed nothing will be done and they will keep on their slow slope of death.
They only people they want to hear from are the Liam Grey's of the fan base that think that their dwindling presence means they are doing better then ever.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 18:31:52 GMT
The rules change threads were not needed (at least not four different ones) they have heard that people want a streamlining and rewording of the rules and a core palladium rule book. If they wait for 100% of the fans to agree on 100% of the changes needed nothing will be done and they will keep on their slow slope of death. They only people they want to hear from are the Liam Grey's of the fan base that think that their dwindling presence means they are doing better then ever. 100%!?! we cant even get 20% to agree on streamlining. We cant get 20% to agree on an all new system. We cant get 20% to agree on re-wording the rules. We can get 20% to agree on all the rules in one place (there are those who think the current layout is just dandy). The only thing everyone agrees on is there has to be some change made. But if PB doesnt know what kind of change the customers want they really cant proceed unless they gamble and just guess thereby risking their only guaranteed source of income (current dwindling customer base) possibly risking closing in 2015 instead of 2025. Given that kind choice is it any surprise they chose to do nothing? |
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 19:09:37 GMT
The rules change threads were not needed (at least not four different ones) they have heard that people want a streamlining and rewording of the rules and a core palladium rule book. If they wait for 100% of the fans to agree on 100% of the changes needed nothing will be done and they will keep on their slow slope of death. They only people they want to hear from are the Liam Grey's of the fan base that think that their dwindling presence means they are doing better then ever. 100%!?! we cant even get 20% to agree on streamlining. We cant get 20% to agree on an all new system. We cant get 20% to agree on re-wording the rules. We can get 20% to agree on all the rules in one place (there are those who think the current layout is just dandy). The only thing everyone agrees on is there has to be some change made. But if PB doesnt know what kind of change the customers want they really cant proceed unless they gamble and just guess thereby risking their only guaranteed source of income (current dwindling customer base) possibly risking closing in 2015 instead of 2025. Given that kind choice is it any surprise they chose to do nothing? Bro we get it you love PB, but guy if Kevin an crew know there needs fixes it's their job to use their imagination to write new rules or just streamline them not the fans. Why become a writer if you have no imagination? FFG knew that their RPG engine for DH could be improved. I'm sure they got some customer input, but ultimately their writers took the bull by the horns and did their own thing. Lil Kevy and crew need to grow a pair and just do their thing and to stop copping out because the fans have their own ideas. Of coarse the fans have their own ideas. When didn't they? If other companies ran shit like PB their would never be any improvement like at PB. I understand the community is divided on what needs fixing but it's very lazy on Kevin's part to let the fan base decide what needs changing. It's his job to go in an improve his product so it doesn't continue to stagnate like it has for several years. Once done then it's our job to play it break it and then he can do more improvements. Here's a crazy scenario. What if he grew a pair redid rifts and become even more successful. Even more crazy than that maybe releasing more than one book a year. Gasp the panic that would cause. Listen you obviously make good points but this half assed defending you do is making you look like your trolling for fun. If not sir/mam I apologize. But if I'm right please do yourself a favor and stop countering what seems like honest post by folks who hold PB near and dear to their hearts. It feels like your doing it more out of spite than logic. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 19:17:48 GMT
This attitude of keeping with the Status quo is a problem, I played Palladium because it was an interesting and less clunky system than the one presented by TSR with AD&D 2nd. but what was good became less and less interesting as it progressed, and RUE and core books made since are just to clunky.
Customers shouldn't have to the leg work. its not hard for look at the information presented on their own company forums to detail where they could start.
but yes, it is right that Kevin can barely produce 3 books a year of the 20+ he swears he will get out... so trying to actually effectively do this would destroy any time table he has... which would be a good thing.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 19:23:21 GMT
This attitude of keeping with the Status quo is a problem, I played Palladium because it was an interesting and less clunky system than the one presented by TSR with AD&D 2nd. but what was good became less and less interesting as it progressed, and RUE and core books made since are just to clunky. Customers shouldn't have to the leg work. its not hard for look at the information presented on their own company forums to detail where they could start. but yes, it is right that Kevin can barely produce 3 books a year of the 20+ he swears he will get out... so trying to actually effectively do this would destroy any time table he has... which would be a good thing. you say that now. But when the changes are not what you wanted what then? |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 11, 2013 19:31:05 GMT
Then it succeeds or fails on it's own merit. If it's 'good' then it'll succeed. If it sucks sour frog balls, it'll fail.
Either way, it doesn't starve to death due to indecision.
They're right. It's not our job to tell them how to do their job. They became leaders in the industry at one time, because people liked what they did and how they did it. That time has passed. Time to put your shoulder into it, buckle down, pull up your big girl panties and work.
When you take a chance, do you sometimes fail? Yes. Do you sometimes succeed? Yes. If you never try, you'll never succeed.
They've got 30 years in the industry. They also have access to Amazon and can order tons of other RPGs. They have access to the internet they can read what people like of other RPGs. what they don't like.
They're treating this like a hobby that they don't want to put any WORK into least it become 'work' and not 'fun'. You gotta WORK. They've been coasting and coasting and coasting off their work from the 80s and 90s... since the 80s and 90s. The momentum of their coasting is almost played out. They gotta WORK. Gotta peddle. Gotta put in, and yes, gotta take a risk. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 19:34:39 GMT
you say that now. But when the changes are not what you wanted what then? That's just it. Someone will always complain. But imagine the excitement we'll experience in having a new sandbox to play in. And just like Kevin what you don't like house rule it. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 19:50:04 GMT
you say that now. But when the changes are not what you wanted what then? That's just it. Someone will always complain. But imagine the excitement we'll experience in having a new sandbox to play in. And just like Kevin what you don't like house rule it. do you see the conflict in the statements being thrown about? Kevin needs to listen to the market to be more successful. But the market shouldn't have to his work for him? Do you even know what you want? |
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 20:01:49 GMT
Bro your nitpicking. I know your smart enough to know that no system is perfect. It's up to Kev an crew to get us excited about the new changes. PB could do like FFG when developing DH 2.0. The play testers would pay $20 to get in. That way you can get your input in and it will be seriously given consideration. I hope your not a PB employee who's trolling just for kicks. I'm for positive change, wether its a new game engine or just a stream lining of the rules.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 11, 2013 20:28:30 GMT
That's just it. Someone will always complain. But imagine the excitement we'll experience in having a new sandbox to play in. And just like Kevin what you don't like house rule it. do you see the conflict in the statements being thrown about? Kevin needs to listen to the market to be more successful. But the market shouldn't have to his work for him? Do you even know what you want? The market demands change. It demands innovation. It demands modernization. It demands quality. It demands product on time. Listen to that. As to the product being demanded, it's Kevin/Palladiums bloody JOB to produce it. Not our job to do it for him. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 20:54:59 GMT
I am not saying we write the damn thing for him.
I am saying that before we cam expect any kind of change we have to agree on more than just "change now."
No struggling company is going to risk a blind change.
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