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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 11, 2013 21:04:14 GMT
Again, that's their job. See the discontent and the demand for change, and change it. Figure out what works and roll. Make it work.
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160 
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 21:09:16 GMT
That's just it. Someone will always complain. But imagine the excitement we'll experience in having a new sandbox to play in. And just like Kevin what you don't like house rule it. do you see the conflict in the statements being thrown about? Kevin needs to listen to the market to be more successful. But the market shouldn't have to his work for him? Do you even know what you want? When Dancy saw that the DnD Customer Base wanted a rules revision they did one. Sci-Fi is right, He makes Claims of how innovative Palladium is, and the fact they were industry leaders... act like Leaders, make a command decision. Easy, I continue doing what I do now, and know that at least he Tried, and hopefully the update will attract more Customers. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 21:11:25 GMT
Bro your nitpicking. I know your smart enough to know that no system is perfect. It's up to Kev an crew to get us excited about the new changes. PB could do like FFG when developing DH 2.0. The play testers would pay $20 to get in. That way you can get your input in and it will be seriously given consideration. I hope your not a PB employee who's trolling just for kicks. I'm for positive change, wether its a new game engine or just a stream lining of the rules. I'd Pay 20.00 to be involved in the Play-test... for fucks sake, DnDNext has been an open development and many of the things complained about in the first play-test packet have disappeared from the final packets.. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 21:13:12 GMT
Again, that's their job. See the discontent and the demand for change, and change it. Figure out what works and roll. Make it work. Saying we need to tell them whats wrong is like thinking the Customers should re-stock the shelves at the grocery store when they are empty of cans... Kevin is paid by his customers to create a product. its Clear his profit and product distribution isn't close to what it was when he was an Industry Innovator as he claims he was.... |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 21:22:53 GMT
Again, that's their job. See the discontent and the demand for change, and change it. Figure out what works and roll. Make it work. and that's where the disconnect comes in. Change what? You can't get more than 20% of the market to agree on what needs changed. What we Di have however is a large portion PF existing customers who say any changes to the status quo will cause them to leave (hot air most likely) but business senders says you cannot count on that being true). So without a plan that shows the potential to replace or maintain the existing base in addition to increasing the customer base the risk is to great. So how is fixed? Get the majority on the same bloody page. Until then we can just expect more of the same. |
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 21:43:03 GMT
I am not saying we write the damn thing for him. I am saying that before we cam expect any kind of change we have to agree on more than just "change now." No struggling company is going to risk a blind change. You just refuse to listen. ITS NOT OUR JOB ITS HIS! It's his company it's his job to figure what to change or just streamline. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 21:59:49 GMT
I am not saying we write the damn thing for him. I am saying that before we cam expect any kind of change we have to agree on more than just "change now." No struggling company is going to risk a blind change. You just refuse to listen. ITS NOT OUR JOB ITS HIS! It's his company it's his job to figure what to change or just streamline. AND HOWdoes he do that? You are the one refusing to "listen." If he cannot get a consensus on a direction then you are asking him to risk his livelihood on a blind chance that has more if a likelihood of bankrupting him or producing the current situation. That is poor odds. The status quo guarantees income. Blind change is what you do at startup not when you are finding off the reaper. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 11, 2013 22:00:28 GMT
Again, that's their job. See the discontent and the demand for change, and change it. Figure out what works and roll. Make it work. and that's where the disconnect comes in. Change what? You can't get more than 20% of the market to agree on what needs changed. What we Di have however is a large portion PF existing customers who say any changes to the status quo will cause them to leave (hot air most likely) but business senders says you cannot count on that being true). So without a plan that shows the potential to replace or maintain the existing base in addition to increasing the customer base the risk is to great. So how is fixed? Get the majority on the same bloody page. Until then we can just expect more of the same. That's when they do their own research. Their own play testing. They read and listen to ALL the complaints. They look over them and compare notes. When the creator of the system itself, doesn't even use his own rules when he game masters, that should give you a big ol clue. You don't just listen to 20% here or 20% there. You listen to them all. You go over their complaints one by one. You address them. You look at them logically and dispassionately. You look at the market and see what works and what doesn't work. You see where the industry is headed. Which parts of the modern game industry could work for you. Which ones could not. You see WHAT MAKES MONEY. You take that into consideration. You look at what you're doing the fans don't like. You look at what you're NOT doing the fans want. You factor ALL those things in. Then you come to a decision. Then you move forward with that decision. So far their decision is to say 90% of people are 100% happy with how things are and don't ever change. We're living breathing proof that's nothing but bullshit. So they need to pull their heads out of the sand (Or some place more smelly) and get to work, or face that death by attrition. |
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Post by kryptt on Dec 11, 2013 22:12:23 GMT
Your funny. What do you think other game companies do? If they were always twiddling their thumbs like PB there would never be innovation and those companies would stagnate also. You refuse to see that others here have given good remarks about what Kevin can do. But you seem to be stuck in a certain line of thinking. Go back to the beginning of this thread and carefully reread what was said.
Come on guy right now your participating in another thread on FB with the same tired BS. Either come back with something new or just don't say anything, because we've heard it befor. We get it. From your point of view it's the customers fault for not coming to a consensus. There I've acknowledged that and so have the other participants here.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 22:21:16 GMT
Your funny. What do you think other game companies do? If they were always twiddling their thumbs like PB there would never be innovation and those companies would stagnate also. You refuse to see that others here have given good remarks about what Kevin can do. But you seem to be stuck in a certain line of thinking. Go back to the beginning of this thread and carefully reread rwhat was said. Come on guy right now your participating in another thread on FB with the same tired BS. Either come back with something new or just don't say anything, because we've heard it befor. We get it. From your point of view it's the customers fault for not coming to a consensus. There I've acknowledged that and so have the other participants here. now you get it. Along as we dissatisfied customers remain divided nothing will get done. What do other companies do? If D&D is an indication still fail to listen to the majority. If they had we wouldn't have 4e to contend with. Paizo has managed to listen. Every change they make garner a consensus of their fan base first. Same thing Kevin is doing. It's unfortunate that his research is limited to yes men. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 22:35:22 GMT
If D&D is an indication still fail to listen to the majority. If they had we wouldn't have 4e to contend with.Paizo has managed to listen. Every change they make garner a consensus of their fan base first. Same thing Kevin is doing. It's unfortunate that his research is limited to yes men. I don't know if you've followed the Development of DnDNext over the last year of open development. but they have listened to the Fans for the development of the newest edition. 4th Edition is the perfect example of not listening to fans and being focused on what corporate management wants... Kevin dosen't have corporate masters holding his leash. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 11, 2013 22:54:15 GMT
If D&D is an indication still fail to listen to the majority. If they had we wouldn't have 4e to contend with.Paizo has managed to listen. Every change they make garner a consensus of their fan base first. Same thing Kevin is doing. It's unfortunate that his research is limited to yes men. I don't know if you've followed the Development of DnDNext over the last year of open development. but they have listened to the Fans for the development of the newest edition. 4th Edition is the perfect example of not listening to fans and being focused on what corporate management wants... Kevin dosen't have corporate masters holding his leash. From what little I have seen of "next" it looks like a case of "to many cooks" may be the end result. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 11, 2013 23:01:45 GMT
I don't know if you've followed the Development of DnDNext over the last year of open development. but they have listened to the Fans for the development of the newest edition. 4th Edition is the perfect example of not listening to fans and being focused on what corporate management wants... Kevin dosen't have corporate masters holding his leash. From what little I have seen of "next" it looks like a case of "to many cooks" may be the end result. interesting, that exactly how many feel about the piecemeal system that is Palladium... |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 12, 2013 0:28:05 GMT
I have to say in most respects I'm with Damian here. Without some form of consensus of what is needed change will NOT happen.
HOWEVER, I will point out it was already mentioned as to HOW Kevin could get PROPER market research done. Hire someone to do it properly over 4-8 week period. Compile a series of questions to be asked. Send them out to the members of the forums privately via email since they have all the email addresses. Send them out to anyone with an account at the online store. Send it to all the Insiders. THAT would be more proper market research. THAT might give a good indication as to what needs to be done AND would cover the bulk of the Palladium customer base that would actually give an answer.
The failing of Alex's 4 threads on the forums was this: IT WAS PUBLIC. You will never EVER get consensus in such a way.
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Post by Josh Hilden on Dec 12, 2013 0:47:41 GMT
Look the man won't listen to people he claims to trust and respect when they tell him what they think should be done face to face. I honestly don't think he believes 98% of what comes off the net.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 12, 2013 0:48:49 GMT
Wait....kevin uses the internet? are you sure he doesn't give wayne a piece of paper to do it for him?  |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 12, 2013 0:53:13 GMT
no one disagrees that they need to find out what the most common issues are, but its his job to do that. asking on the forums and asking people who pay to hang out with you is gonna give useless answers...
we do disagree that its up to the fans to compile the list...
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 12, 2013 0:55:31 GMT
Wait....kevin uses the internet? are you sure he doesn't give wayne a piece of paper to do it for him? I think he faxes Wayne a note written with ink and quill... |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 12, 2013 1:53:58 GMT
The real problem is like josh said, Kevin thinks he is right 100% of the time and doesn't trust anyone else's opinion. Look at what him and Alex say it's not that they are causing bad sales or loss of fans it is the hobby dying. Even though I see more and more People playing table tops now then ever.
Even if they don't have a clear cut consensus they know that people want some kind of change. They don't want to try and figure out what they need to do. As I said they don't need 100% of people to agree on what needs to be done they just need to know that a large number far more then 20% want a change of some kind.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 12, 2013 2:06:49 GMT
The real problem is like josh said, Kevin thinks he is right 100% of the time and doesn't trust anyone else's opinion. Look at what him and Alex say it's not that they are causing bad sales or loss of fans it is the hobby dying. Even though I see more and more People playing table tops now then ever. Even if they don't have a clear cut consensus they know that people want some kind of change. They don't want to try and figure out what they need to do. As I said they don't need 100% of people to agree on what needs to be done they just need to know that a large number far more then 20% want a change of some kind. agreed. But if 70% of your faithful followers say making any kind of change will result in the loss of them as customers then what ever change you make has to insure you recoup that loss and make a "profit" as well. So its a tough row to hoe. |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 12, 2013 3:08:59 GMT
The real problem is like josh said, Kevin thinks he is right 100% of the time and doesn't trust anyone else's opinion. Look at what him and Alex say it's not that they are causing bad sales or loss of fans it is the hobby dying. Even though I see more and more People playing table tops now then ever. Even if they don't have a clear cut consensus they know that people want some kind of change. They don't want to try and figure out what they need to do. As I said they don't need 100% of people to agree on what needs to be done they just need to know that a large number far more then 20% want a change of some kind. agreed. But if 70% of your faithful followers say making any kind of change will result in the loss of them as customers then what ever change you make has to insure you recoup that loss and make a "profit" as well. So its a tough row to hoe. if that 70% is only 30% of the numbers you once enjoyed. It may be worth the gamble, I am not Kevin but if I ran the company I would pull the trigger on it. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 12, 2013 3:23:41 GMT
I would be inclined to agree.
But again...
Doing that could mean the difference in locking the doors in year or five years.
If those are my choices then I might try a wait see if I can come up with something better later approach.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 12, 2013 3:29:58 GMT
lol where are you getting numbers like 70% would leave if there's any kind of change? That's just like saying 90% of them are perfectly happy with how things are?
Where is the number coming from?
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 12, 2013 3:52:48 GMT
lol where are you getting numbers like 70% would leave if there's any kind of change? That's just like saying 90% of them are perfectly happy with how things are? Where is the number coming from? same place you and everyone else is getting their numbers. |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 12, 2013 3:55:49 GMT
lol where are you getting numbers like 70% would leave if there's any kind of change? That's just like saying 90% of them are perfectly happy with how things are? Where is the number coming from? i think DM is just using numbers as an example not factual accounts. Which I don't have a problem with as I figure he is just trying to show the flip side of the coin. If he was blindly defending me and him would be having a much more heated debate. As I am sure you have seen us go at it on the pally boards sci-fi. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 12, 2013 3:58:39 GMT
Now that is not to say I believe any of those who say they will leave. They are probably blowing smoke.
But basic business sense says you cannot discount their claims.
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 12, 2013 3:58:45 GMT
lol where are you getting numbers like 70% would leave if there's any kind of change? That's just like saying 90% of them are perfectly happy with how things are? Where is the number coming from? same place you and everyone else is getting their numbers. some of us are using fictional numbers along others fictional numbers. |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 12, 2013 4:02:46 GMT
Now that is not to say I believe any of those who say they will leave. They are probably blowing smoke. But basic business sense says you cannot discount their claims. and honestly if Pallidium where to look at those people that were claiming this. They would find out that that the so-called diehards who own everything, so really there just the yes-men Or at least some of the majority would be. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 12, 2013 4:05:15 GMT
same place you and everyone else is getting their numbers. some of us are using fictional numbers along others fictional numbers. pretty much. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 12, 2013 4:06:59 GMT
lol where are you getting numbers like 70% would leave if there's any kind of change? That's just like saying 90% of them are perfectly happy with how things are? Where is the number coming from? same place you and everyone else is getting their numbers. I don't think I've put forth numbers myself. So to be clear you're just making them up to throw out there for hypothetical examples? Well that's great. What if purple monkies crawl out of their man parts? I mean if we're making stuff up... |
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