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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 1, 2013 4:29:51 GMT
It took how many years of crappy sales on the Robotech books and people pointing out as 'rulebooks' they were hard to use, as they'djust flip closed unless you hold them open. Not conductive for using as RULE books, to get him to change?
I think they were not saving any money by making the smaller books either. I.E. they cost just as much at the printer as a full size book.
They sold well at the start, as it was the only way to get the new robotech stuff, but people didn't like the size. "Oh you can stick them in a pocket andgo" Who the hell is just stuffing rule books in their pockets and going? What are you going to do with all your character sheets and dice and stuff. Ball them up and stick them in other pockets? lol It was a gimmic that only lasted a bit before it got stale.
As for PDF's though, I have to agree with Lupala. Simple numbers aren't going to win the day. Anyone that looks at Amazon Kindle and how awesomely they sell. At Ipads and other tablets and how awesome they sell and still says "Ebooks could be a fad" Is willfully resisting the truth and progress.
They don't like PDFs because they resist technology. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe they're just older guys (In their 40s and 50s) and don't want to learn new tech. Maybe it's just that they're stuck in their ways. I don't know. It's not 'just' PDF's though. We've seen it with the Facebook page (( Three weeks of 9-5 work to get a Facebook page up!?) We've seen it before that when they had the same webpage from the earily 90s till a year or two ago, and them saying that their web guy was building it for over a year. The website is ok. I'm not going to cry about it. But no professional would take over a year to build it. I could do it with simple editing tools in a week or two and I'm far far far from a professional.
Palladium/Kevin, as a company and or as the boss, just doesn't like tech. They resist it. Alex has made silly statements about Ebooks/PDFs.
Their minds are made up. Given time if the industry keeps going as it is going (And everyone sees it going) They may end up falling ass backwards into PDF production, but it won't be a eureka moment where they suddenly realize they can make money off of it. They've been shown that already.
If they do it, it'll be them just conceding to unending pressure from all fronts, it'll be many years late (already is actually) and when they do actually start, they'll make it out like it's a new and revolutionary idea, they came up with all on their own, and they'll note that they would have had it sooner, but they were "Waiting to make sure we did it RIGHT! For you, the fans!"
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 1, 2013 4:45:03 GMT
Which sucks, because as already pointed out, it doesn't stop people from pirating the PDFs. Those that want the PDF's still have them. The only differences? Lower quality, and Palladium doesn't get paid. I know many people would love to pay for the PDFs. As they largely can't, they get them for free. I'm not 'advocating' such a thing. It's just a fact. A quick search, at ONE torrent site- about 50 people seeding various torrents of palladium books stuff... about a dozen different torrents, of various sizes/settings/collections... About another 30 people or so downloading those torrents AS I TYPE... So, there's your fact, backed up with an "on the scene" view... Now, these same people may have hard copies of stuff, BUT, can't buy PDFs.. and some likely would d/l anyway, but, I'm sure at least SOME would be buying if they could.. |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 1, 2013 4:50:28 GMT
Which sucks, because as already pointed out, it doesn't stop people from pirating the PDFs. Those that want the PDF's still have them. The only differences? Lower quality, and Palladium doesn't get paid. I know many people would love to pay for the PDFs. As they largely can't, they get them for free. I'm not 'advocating' such a thing. It's just a fact. A quick search, at ONE torrent site- about 50 people seeding various torrents of palladium books stuff... about a dozen different torrents, of various sizes/settings/collections... About another 30 people or so downloading those torrents AS I TYPE... So, there's your fact, backed up with an "on the scene" view... Now, these same people may have hard copies of stuff, BUT, can't buy PDFs.. and some likely would d/l anyway, but, I'm sure at least SOME would be buying if they could.. Just off the top of my head, I can think of about five different sites that are hosting direct downloads of virtually every Palladium Robotech or Macross II RPG book. The market is definitely there, even the frothy-mouthed techno-Luddites at Games Workshop can see that PDF is a viable market. It'll be the crack of doom before Kevin gets off his arse and adopts this decade-old technology... after all, wasn't he still using a wax machine until just a couple years ago? |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 1, 2013 4:55:50 GMT
They only went to digital layout about 2002-2006 or so. I forget the exact year. It's been a while, but it was a long time after everyone else.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 1, 2013 5:03:24 GMT
2012: Pew Research Center’s Internet & American Life Project- 19% of Americans own an e-reader. 21% of Americans had read an e-book in the past year.
That's JUST Americans...
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 1, 2013 5:04:34 GMT
And cyber Monday is in a few days. That percentage is only going to go up.
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 1, 2013 5:04:48 GMT
They only went to digital layout about 2002-2006 or so. I forget the exact year. It's been a while, but it was a long time after everyone else. Yeah, I recall one of Kevin's former writers who parted with the company on acrimonious terms mentioning that Kevin was still using a hot-wax typesetting machine as late as 2003. So, if he holds to pattern, he'll adopt PDF sometime in 2023... if the company lasts that long. I wonder which'll go first, his cherished two-column black and white printing format or his desire to avoid digital distribution? Anyway, until then, the only way we're gonna get PDFs of anything Palladium is to make 'em ourselves or obtain 'em through less-than-legitimate channels. He's not going to budge until the rest of the industry practically jams the irrefutable logic of the thing up his nose. EDIT: Hell, why hasn't Palladium gone to color printing yet? Even Games Workshop has started doing that, and they're usually the last ones on any particular bandwagon. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 1, 2013 5:17:12 GMT
They only went to digital layout about 2002-2006 or so. I forget the exact year. It's been a while, but it was a long time after everyone else. Yeah, I recall one of Kevin's former writers who parted with the company on acrimonious terms mentioning that Kevin was still using a hot-wax typesetting machine as late as 2003. So, if he holds to pattern, he'll adopt PDF sometime in 2023... if the company lasts that long. I wonder which'll go first, his cherished two-column black and white printing format or his desire to avoid digital distribution? Anyway, until then, the only way we're gonna get PDFs of anything Palladium is to make 'em ourselves or obtain 'em through less-than-legitimate channels. He's not going to budge until the rest of the industry practically jams the irrefutable logic of the thing up his nose. EDIT: Hell, why hasn't Palladium gone to color printing yet? Even Games Workshop has started doing that, and they're usually the last ones on any particular bandwagon. ok just stop with the constant slam on the two column layout. That is the industry standard. 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder et al still use it. That is not a valid gripe and you know it. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 1, 2013 12:04:25 GMT
The standard is the 2-coloumn layout (Going back to my 70's copies of aDnD), but honestly... Palladium's books still look like they are from the 80's.
side by Side my New and Old Robotech RPG book look like they were published around the same time, save the new art is a little better...
Comparing a 1st and 2nd edition DnD book to their 3.x and 4.0 counterparts and their is a noticeable difference in quality.
Again, Palladium's artwork was amazing when you compared it to the nearly-bankrupt-TSR's products of the mid-late 90's.
IDK, when i look at a Palladium books today, it looks like i found an archive.org or someone's later90's geocities webpage...
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Post by Josh Hilden on Dec 1, 2013 14:59:53 GMT
I want PDF and Print as well in my games books. And Damian is right novels and RPG's are different beasts I was just showing how well eBooks sell for a nickle and dime publisher like myself.  |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 1, 2013 15:13:48 GMT
Yeah, I recall one of Kevin's former writers who parted with the company on acrimonious terms mentioning that Kevin was still using a hot-wax typesetting machine as late as 2003. So, if he holds to pattern, he'll adopt PDF sometime in 2023... if the company lasts that long. I wonder which'll go first, his cherished two-column black and white printing format or his desire to avoid digital distribution? Anyway, until then, the only way we're gonna get PDFs of anything Palladium is to make 'em ourselves or obtain 'em through less-than-legitimate channels. He's not going to budge until the rest of the industry practically jams the irrefutable logic of the thing up his nose. EDIT: Hell, why hasn't Palladium gone to color printing yet? Even Games Workshop has started doing that, and they're usually the last ones on any particular bandwagon. ok just stop with the constant slam on the two column layout. That is the industry standard. 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder et al still use it. That is not a valid gripe and you know it. Damian, while he did mention the 2-column layout he wasn't slamming a 2 column layout per se but Palladium's version of it. Yes many if not almost all publishers use a 2 column format but it is how they use it and present it that makes ALL the difference. Hell I've been gong through my old Top Secret/SI Players Guide and while it is basically a 2 column black and white format it does use a bit of red highlight throughout as well as a better way of including charts (in my opinion) for the player to follow. It just looks "better" and this is a book published in 1987, right around the time Palladium produced Robotech IIRC. So it's not so much 2 column format but the actual presentation thereof. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 1, 2013 18:49:29 GMT
Then the argument needs to be better expressed.
The way it reads he is denigrating one company for using a layout that is used by everyone else while give them a free pass on it.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 1, 2013 19:04:26 GMT
As pointed out, if you open a Palladium book from the late 80s and open a Palladium book from yesterday, other than the art being 'different' the books look like they could have been published back to back.
Palladium is black and white, brick, 2 column layout. No divination. You get full page. Half page, or quarter page art. Positioned exactly at the top half. Bottom half or in one quarter panel. Period. You can also very much tell when a bit of art was drawn to be full page and just shrinked to 1 quarter page.
The art itself is black and white. No color.
The books are soft cover, middle to low grade paper.
The fonts are the same basic few found in every word program since the 80s.
Other companies may use two column format, but they break it up. They can put art anywhere, middle of the page, etc, and wrap the words around it, narrowing and expanding the column, etc. Most other companies have gone to full color printing on better paper. Many will put in things like Letters or first person accounts on what looks like parchment or notes etc in the books. For example another company might have stuff from Northern Gun on NG letterhead inter-spaced in the NG book. Palladium does not.
Color art in books, varying fonts, script sometimes, differentiated column layout etc.
Palladium books are the same they were in the 80s. No deviation. No innovation. No evolution. People say "Well they're a small company" Yeah they are, but look at the Stuff Onyx path is putting out, both in quantity, quality and simple beauty of their books. Being a small company is no longer remotely an excuse.
It's a willful decision by the powers that be at Palladium not to even try and innovate.
It'd be like a car company putting out the exact same car for 30 years, changing nothing but the color. Not even the 'options' have changed. The car is a simple 4 door sedan. Nothing exciting. Noting revolutionary. Sometimes the paint job is nice but it's the same car year after year after year. Other car companies have put out dozens of different models. Some not as good as the bland 4 door sedan but many better. Many with different features, prettier, faster, sleeker, newer. Palladium's still producing the same 30 year old car.
Yes Palladium and the other companies are still producing their 'cars' they all have 4 wheels and go. (Two Column format) but there's something to be said about a 30 year old sedan vs the car that rolled out this year with all the bells and whistles. Do you absolutely need every bell and whistle to drive and get where you're going? No. But it's alot nicer with leather seats and air conditioning, and something other than AM radio.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 1, 2013 19:24:40 GMT
I would dispute the middle to low grade paper comment. Palladium's books are probably the most durable RPG books I own and I have two 5ft tall, 3ft wide books shelves about 75% filled with RPG books alone (the rest being reference books for military gear etc)
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 1, 2013 20:00:42 GMT
I would dispute the middle to low grade paper comment. Palladium's books are probably the most durable RPG books I own and I have two 5ft tall, 3ft wide books shelves about 75% filled with RPG books alone (the rest being reference books for military gear etc) yeah I gotta dispute that point as well... My Palladium books have held up better than many of the Hardbounds I have purchased from other game companies. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 1, 2013 20:05:25 GMT
Paper quality and durability may not be entirely linked. Construction paper is very durable. But it's not a high quality paper.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 1, 2013 20:11:46 GMT
If you are comparing the paper they use against fully laminate glossy paper then yes it may be of lower qualtiy but honestly the vast majority of my books aren't laminate glossy paper either.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 1, 2013 20:42:37 GMT
That's partially the point. In the 80s and early 90s everyone used general white paper. No big deal. The industry has moved on now. 4 color print on glossy paper is the norm now for quality RPGs. Open up a D&D book, A Pathfinder book. One of the White Wolf Books through the Onyx path. Star Wars.. Star Trek etc.
Some companies will put out splat books in black and white on lower quality paper, but for their base books or anything over about 90 pages you find the full color glossy. Often in hard back these days too.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 1, 2013 20:45:09 GMT
Honestly? Those things were never a draw for me. I was after the content not the presentation. That's not to say palladium could not use a dose of better presentation though. It can. Very much so. I just don't think it has to go with the same flash or as much flash that so many others do.
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 1, 2013 21:30:16 GMT
I do like the glossy look now a days, but I would be happy if pally just made the lay out a little fresher. They could keep the two column black and white it just needs to look a little newer, Eden (AFMBE) is black and white two column it just looks more modern.
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 2, 2013 2:12:39 GMT
ok just stop with the constant slam on the two column layout. That is the industry standard. 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder et al still use it. That is not a valid gripe and you know it. Damian, while he did mention the 2-column layout he wasn't slamming a 2 column layout per se but Palladium's version of it. Yes many if not almost all publishers use a 2 column format but it is how they use it and present it that makes ALL the difference. Hell I've been gong through my old Top Secret/SI Players Guide and while it is basically a 2 column black and white format it does use a bit of red highlight throughout as well as a better way of including charts (in my opinion) for the player to follow. It just looks "better" and this is a book published in 1987, right around the time Palladium produced Robotech IIRC. So it's not so much 2 column format but the actual presentation thereof. Thanks for straightening that out for him, jaymz. I don't have anything against the notion of a two-column layout... it's just that, even with the modern, digital tools Kevin is using, he's still doing his layouts like he was on his antique frigging wax machine. He's not leveraging the tools he already has to present a more visually appealing and better-organized product to his customers. Yes, you can walk into pretty much any game store and find a bunch of different books with the two-column layout by many a publisher, but sit any of them side by side with Palladium's work and the latter looks like something a college student put together for his buddies and ran off on the dorm's laser printer... not the output of a professional games designer with decades of experience. PDF is just one way in which Palladium needs to step up its game. That's partially the point. In the 80s and early 90s everyone used general white paper. No big deal. The industry has moved on now. 4 color print on glossy paper is the norm now for quality RPGs. Open up a D&D book, A Pathfinder book. One of the White Wolf Books through the Onyx path. Star Wars.. Star Trek etc. Some companies will put out splat books in black and white on lower quality paper, but for their base books or anything over about 90 pages you find the full color glossy. Often in hard back these days too. Yeah, that continues to surprise me WRT Palladium's Robotech "second edition" line... even a pack of notorious skinflints like Harmony Gold are willing to pony up for four-color separations on glossy paper, and industry pressure has even forced the notoriously backwards nuts at Games Workshop to adopt color printing for their rulebooks, but Palladium's running the company-saving title in grainy black-and-white on regular cartridge paper? |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 2, 2013 2:28:58 GMT
I just hope the rtt books are not gonna look as bad as the new robotech ones...
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 2, 2013 4:12:57 GMT
I just hope the rtt books are not gonna look as bad as the new robotech ones... It's a different company printing them, right? We can only hope... Being more of a tabletop games guy than a RPG guy most days, I'd honestly be floored if the Robotech RPG Tactics rule book wasn't printed in four-color separation on glossy paper. That's pretty much the standard for that industry these days, now that Privateer Press has effectively forced Games Workshop to adopt a glossy paper and color-printing format starting in Warhammer 40,000's Sixth Edition just to keep up. |
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Post by 13eowulf on Dec 2, 2013 4:14:56 GMT
I dont like glossy paper, I find it harder on my eyes.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 2, 2013 4:44:32 GMT
I dont like glossy paper, I find it harder on my eyes. I dont buy games based on how "pretty" they look. I buy them based on how good is the engine driving it? And is the setting one I desire? |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 2, 2013 4:52:34 GMT
I dont like glossy paper, I find it harder on my eyes. I dont buy games based on how "pretty" they look. I buy them based on how good is the engine driving it? And is the setting one I desire? People say that, but study after study after study shows that humans, as a people, do go for things that look better, if possible. be it mates, food, items, anything. Not 'Every time'. But you can bet that way if you're looking at numbers. All other things being equal, people go for the one that looks the best. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 2, 2013 7:12:13 GMT
yeah well my aesthetics is as follows...
Polish a turd its still a turd.
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 2, 2013 7:59:34 GMT
yeah well my aesthetics is as follows... Polish a turd its still a turd. one mans trash is another treasure. its pretty easy to say the sales numbers for the last decade of Palladium existence show just how much their content is selling with it current presentation. Robotech's new edition is seling at about 5% of the rate of the Original Edition in the same time period... (<5,000 in 5 years v. >100,000+ in 5 years.) now Palladium could bolster those number if they had released PDF's as well... |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 2, 2013 8:12:28 GMT
yeah well my aesthetics is as follows... Polish a turd its still a turd. one mans trash is another treasure. its pretty easy to say the sales numbers for the last decade of Palladium existence show just how much their content is selling with it current presentation. Robotech's new edition is seling at about 5% of the rate of the Original Edition in the same time period... (<5,000 in 5 years v. >100,000+ in 5 years.) now Palladium could bolster those number if they had released PDF's as well... agreed. but glossy paper with a pretty back ground and color plates wont help if the engine is still held together with spit and baling wire. |
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
"I haven't done any research "-Steve Yune
Posts: 160
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 2, 2013 8:16:44 GMT
agreed. but glossy paper with a pretty back ground and color plates wont help if the engine is still held together with spit and baling wire. are we talking about Palladium's system... or another game system... because the Duct tape holding RUE together is pretty strong...  |
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