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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 7:34:59 GMT
You mean if you only make batman as he was in the 50s, you can leave out the rest of the century and beyond? Well. yeah but that's not how most of us see him.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 10:01:26 GMT
you also realize if you stick to a non silver age version you can leave out all the extra bat crap. not really. even "bronze" age and "aluminum" age have Bruce (the only one we are really talking about here) loaded to bear in "bat crap" even the golden age stuff had him heavily laden with bat-gizmos. But the silver age version is where the hunchback and WT R&D stories originate. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 14, 2013 10:13:33 GMT
if the idea is to play these characters with new players, there's a high chance they will not be familiar with the "80's Batman" or 90s' batman, or anything but the most recent batman, which is far grittier -- in that version of the storyline Batman doesn't seem to acknowledge that resurrection of dead heroes is something easy but i believe that the current continuity erases huge chunks of batlore for an insane storlyine that doesn't make any sense given prior bat man history... For example, he goes rampaging some minor supervillain to get him restore his dead son.. When freaking deadman or spectre could do it without breaking a snap.. or turning to the islamic green lantern... Or the white lantern.Nope. he turns to "science" when We (the fans) know magic works much better.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 10:19:59 GMT
As I pointed out, you're ignoring that there are many stories that say Bats DID design and build alot of it. While he used Wayne tech to get it 'lost' or manufactured he still desgined alot of it, and made much of it in the Batcave. There's three or four scenes of this in the new batman movies alone. Doing the Bat-a-rangs,i the cowl, the armor, the cape and stuff. Often modifying tech from Morgan freeman.  Also 'Mega money' is one of the benefits of the Mega category, that a NG can't get as he's in his own Mega catagory himself. Gear is not solved. Ninjitsu, only works if you ignore the purposeful limitations based on the NG category. (The limitation of the physical) And again you're 'breaking the class' to allow it. So again. "We can do it" but only if you break and or combine two or three classes here. So you are arguing that because there are stories where he makes his own gear then he must of course "have" to be at least in part a hardware mech/elec/analyitical so 3 classes right there. Then we have to add his intensive physical training... +1 total is 4 and he is the worlds greatest detective so super sleuth. +1 total is 5 that requires not just breaking the system but shattering it into pieces. And extrapolating the rules in place (under hardware) for taking a second hardware to its logical conclusion makes for a character that is unplayable due to a lack of APM (actually if we assume Bats is 15th level it means he has fewer APM than a straight up e-geek of 5th level). where the Mastermind with 2 simple tweaks and lots of cash (no one says it "has" to be a mega power; it was just the quickest way to deal with it). Making him wealthy is part of his shtick. Requires fewer breaks to the system. And the NG is already a mega is still in debate as far as I am concerned. While I have it on "good authority" (IE: multiple second hand hearsay evidence) my copy of PU2 says nothing of the sort. And I have yet to locate one of these 2nd printings (every copy I have ever picked up is a 1st print run). |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 10:24:21 GMT
if the idea is to play these characters with new players, there's a high chance they will not be familiar with the "80's Batman" or 90s' batman, or anything but the most recent batman, which is far grittier -- in that version of the storyline Batman doesn't seem to acknowledge that resurrection of dead heroes is something easy but i believe that the current continuity erases huge chunks of batlore for an insane storlyine that doesn't make any sense given prior bat man history... For example, he goes rampaging some minor supervillain to get him restore his dead son.. When freaking deadman or spectre could do it without breaking a snap.. or turning to the islamic green lantern... Or the white lantern.Nope. he turns to "science" when We (the fans) know magic works much better. And that is where you would be wrong. Even my 10 year old nephew knows all about the silver age Bats. My neighbors 5 year old can tell me the name of every single Bat-gizmo ever used. And they both think the current comic versions of Bats and his rogues gallery "sucks big hairy donkey butt" (their words; but I cant say I disagree) Batman has surpassed being just a comic character and entered into modern day mythology. Everyone "knows" all about the Bat. |
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Post by 13eowulf on Dec 14, 2013 14:16:25 GMT
Next issue? Ninjitsu. It all depends on if we "have" to stay within just the HU books or if we can incorporate other lines. Incorporating N&S was tricky/complex in HUr and HU2 doesnt even give it as an option (except for only one class which is not covered until Century Station). In my copy of the HU2 main book N&SS options are available both in the Ancient Master and the Special Agent classes, or are you referring to something else? |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 14, 2013 14:36:16 GMT
I'm still leaning towards PhD education, analytical genius, ninja master.
Why? because while several of the "powers" of the natural genius apply (and should), to me conceptually, natural genius is more for the likes of Tony Stark, Lex Luthor and Reed Richards.
If I were to go Natural Genius/Ninja Master, I'd likely still add PhD level education in there as well. Then start all Attributes at 18 prior to adding in all the bonuses from skills and ninjutsu. This would likely give him mid 20's in all physical aspects (about where I would expect him to be) and the plethora of skills/abilities he has with high % in all of them. And of course he is most certainly a 15th level character.
I may have to write this up tonight.......
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Post by yilbber on Dec 14, 2013 17:22:25 GMT
Next issue? Ninjitsu. It all depends on if we "have" to stay within just the HU books or if we can incorporate other lines. Incorporating N&S was tricky/complex in HUr and HU2 doesnt even give it as an option (except for only one class which is not covered until Century Station). In my copy of the HU2 main book N&SS options are available both in the Ancient Master and the Special Agent classes, or are you referring to something else? Ninjas and superspies has a whole section on including Martial arts in Heroes unlimited (REVISED) which allows it to be included on more then one Character type. Including , mutant Animals. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 17:50:59 GMT
Next issue? Ninjitsu. It all depends on if we "have" to stay within just the HU books or if we can incorporate other lines. Incorporating N&S was tricky/complex in HUr and HU2 doesnt even give it as an option (except for only one class which is not covered until Century Station). In my copy of the HU2 main book N&SS options are available both in the Ancient Master and the Special Agent classes, or are you referring to something else? Huh... there it is... Well what do you know? I have read and re-read the HU2 core more times than I care to count and have over looked that every time. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 20:04:47 GMT
As I pointed out, you're ignoring that there are many stories that say Bats DID design and build alot of it. While he used Wayne tech to get it 'lost' or manufactured he still desgined alot of it, and made much of it in the Batcave. There's three or four scenes of this in the new batman movies alone. Doing the Bat-a-rangs,i the cowl, the armor, the cape and stuff. Often modifying tech from Morgan freeman. Also 'Mega money' is one of the benefits of the Mega category, that a NG can't get as he's in his own Mega catagory himself. Gear is not solved. Ninjitsu, only works if you ignore the purposeful limitations based on the NG category. (The limitation of the physical) And again you're 'breaking the class' to allow it. So again. "We can do it" but only if you break and or combine two or three classes here. So you are arguing that because there are stories where he makes his own gear then he must of course "have" to be at least in part a hardware mech/elec/analyitical so 3 classes right there. Then we have to add his intensive physical training... +1 total is 4 and he is the worlds greatest detective so super sleuth. +1 total is 5 that requires not just breaking the system but shattering it into pieces. And extrapolating the rules in place (under hardware) for taking a second hardware to its logical conclusion makes for a character that is unplayable due to a lack of APM (actually if we assume Bats is 15th level it means he has fewer APM than a straight up e-geek of 5th level). where the Mastermind with 2 simple tweaks and lots of cash (no one says it "has" to be a mega power; it was just the quickest way to deal with it). Making him wealthy is part of his shtick. Requires fewer breaks to the system. And the NG is already a mega is still in debate as far as I am concerned. While I have it on "good authority" (IE: multiple second hand hearsay evidence) my copy of PU2 says nothing of the sort. And I have yet to locate one of these 2nd printings (every copy I have ever picked up is a 1st print run). Lots of words that boil down to "There's many ways to try and do it, but alll of them require you breaking existing power categories or ignoring limiting factors of catagories or combining two to three different ones. "Oh a few minor tweeks" like.. totally ignoring the purposefully built in limitations on physical skills in the NG Category and going above and beyond that to add in a N&SS martial art, and exclusive no less for free jus' cuz. Which is fine if you want to do that. That's already been stipulated. I don't really understand the dance around it. You're trying to handwave it as if it's no big deal, but it is. Thing is, most here don't care. "Two tweeks' 'and lots of cash' is three tweeks, as the lots of cash is now a mega thing in and of itself. As for it being in debate as far as your concerned. No. It's not in debate. It's canon. You're choosing to go by a previous edition, knowing full well it's been changed. lol. Again, which seems rather pointless. If you admit you gotta break a class two or three ways to get it to work, it's gotta be broken foir it to work, so what's the debate? |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:19:41 GMT
So you are arguing that because there are stories where he makes his own gear then he must of course "have" to be at least in part a hardware mech/elec/analyitical so 3 classes right there. Then we have to add his intensive physical training... +1 total is 4 and he is the worlds greatest detective so super sleuth. +1 total is 5 that requires not just breaking the system but shattering it into pieces. And extrapolating the rules in place (under hardware) for taking a second hardware to its logical conclusion makes for a character that is unplayable due to a lack of APM (actually if we assume Bats is 15th level it means he has fewer APM than a straight up e-geek of 5th level). where the Mastermind with 2 simple tweaks and lots of cash (no one says it "has" to be a mega power; it was just the quickest way to deal with it). Making him wealthy is part of his shtick. Requires fewer breaks to the system. And the NG is already a mega is still in debate as far as I am concerned. While I have it on "good authority" (IE: multiple second hand hearsay evidence) my copy of PU2 says nothing of the sort. And I have yet to locate one of these 2nd printings (every copy I have ever picked up is a 1st print run). Lots of words that boil down to "There's many ways to try and do it, but alll of them require you breaking existing power categories or ignoring limiting factors of catagories or combining two to three different ones. "Oh a few minor tweeks" like.. totally ignoring the purposefully built in limitations on physical skills in the NG Category and going above and beyond that to add in a N&SS martial art, and exclusive no less for free jus' cuz. Which is fine if you want to do that. That's already been stipulated. I don't really understand the dance around it. You're trying to handwave it as if it's no big deal, but it is. Thing is, most here don't care. "Two tweeks' 'and lots of cash' is three tweeks, as the lots of cash is now a mega thing in and of itself. except 1: lots of cash is not a game breaker (lots of precedents in canon for it as legal for all classes) 2: the difference is in how badly you break the game. No I do not know full well. I have no verifiable proof that such has indeed happened. As I pointed out I have hearsay evidence (which in the last 24 months has proven to be unreliable where "updates" between print runs are concerned). How much breaking must be done is whats up for debate. Its the difference between do you bend the rules enhancing the system? Or do you shatter the rules into something unrecognizable as the original system? |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 20:38:24 GMT
1: Multi billionare is different from 50K in the bank from starting cash. You're basicly going "Lots of classes get a motorcycle or a car to start, so having an aircraft carrier can totally be doable.!"
2: The fact that the game has to be broken is the point. Once you agree that you have to break it two or three ways, it's sort of moot to try and imply that it's not that bad. If you have to break it two or three ways minimum, then it's broken.
Which is fine. These aren't the official forums. Nor are we welded to canon stuff like metal. We can break it as we want.
As for it being in debate, that's bullshit and you know it. "Oh.. .I refuse to buy the new book so I don't KNOW it's really changed. LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!! I can't hear you!! LA LA LA LA!! I can't hear you!!
Seriously? Give me a break Damian. It's there on page 72. Optional Mega Hero class. If you don't like it. That's fine, but trying to argue that it doesn't exist because you don't have the most recent book where it was clearly stated doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
That's like saying "oh the Cyberknights out of the RMB are the only Cyberknights. I don't have the SoT Cyberknight book so I don't KNOW that they changed them and added stuff to them.... It's just hearsay.
It's there. Just to make sure I pulled out my book and checked. You not having the book is on you. It doesn't invalidate the information.
How much breaking may be up for debate. That it has to be broken two or three ways minimum is not. Thus it's broken. Which again is fine, but don't break it two or three ways and then claim it's 'fine as is' or doesn't need to be broken to get from A to Zed.
The NG category is very clear you can only get 4 physical skills. Batman has most of the physical skills out of the book. Most of them at olympic level lol. Adding on tons of physical skills (one of the only limitations of the class) and Exclusive Martial arts on top of that radically breaks the class as intended.
Which is fine if you don't care. But don't act like it's no biggie, when you're 100% ignoring the intentionl limitations of the class to get all that you want. They're also limited on rogue skills, which again, bats likely has every one of at 98% or something.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:48:07 GMT
Ok lets get this out there.
Its still in debate because I have been informed on multiple occasions by multiple "reliable" sources in the last two years that class xyz was altered in printing 123.
only to find out after checking printing 123 said reliable sources were talking out of their nether regions.
I have been unable to locate a 2nd printing of PU2 to confirm this as yet. (and I am not wasting $15 + shipping just for one little additional sentence.)
Sorry but I go with if I cannot confirm the rule with my own eyes its not fact. (I have been lied to by posters far to often to take their word for it any longer).
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 20:54:06 GMT
Whatever man.
You're claiming it's not verified because it goes against where you want the argument to go. It's in the book. You can stick your head in the sand and be like 'Pics or it didn't happen' all you want. You're wrong. Thing is, you know it.
So claim whatever you want. By Canon it is what it is. If you refuse to have the updated books or go by the canon rules that's fine, but don't make it out like some conspiracy because you don't WANT to believe it. Your lack of having a book doesn't invalidate the book or the rules therein. Nor is 'I don't have the book' an argument against what's in it.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 14, 2013 21:01:11 GMT
Actually Sci-fi.....I very much question any "changes" between printing unless i can see it in someones copy or a pdf etc. Depends on who is telling me as well. every time they do a reprint (new printing) they should be smart enough to realize that they should post up what the changes are. If that takes "too much time" to do then they really need to learn how to time manage their shit.
Hell I didn't even know they DID a 2nd printing of PU2 LOL
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 21:14:00 GMT
Whatever man. You're claiming it's not verified because it goes against where you want the argument to go. It's in the book. You can stick your head in the sand and be like 'Pics or it didn't happen' all you want. You're wrong. Thing is, you know it. So claim whatever you want. By Canon it is what it is. If you refuse to have the updated books or go by the canon rules that's fine, but don't make it out like some conspiracy because you don't WANT to believe it. Your lack of having a book doesn't invalidate the book or the rules therein. Nor is 'I don't have the book' an argument against what's in it. I have a copy of the book. My copy says its a regular class. I only have your word and the word of several other posters to the contrary and seeing as one of those is liam... the information is automatically suspect. |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 14, 2013 21:20:15 GMT
Sci-fi - that is the problem with canon. Canon really is only whatever information you have. If I never bought RUE....and no one in my group has it yet I have people telling me that Called shots no longer need a 12 and take two actions even if they have page numbers, it does ME no good as MY canon does not have that but the old way. Knowing is one thing but actually having it to be able to use it is quite another. That's just my opinion and it is why the Palladium rules a re so fucked up to begin with. Multiple books/games all with multiple printings that have changes in them giving you essentially dozens of versions of the rules.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 15, 2013 2:35:34 GMT
OK. I re-read closely the rules on the natural Genius. his Minor Limitation is easily fixed with adding a 2nd Training Class to cover his lapses. Given that Even hardware Characters are allowed to double train (at a loss of attacks per melee) you could Do the same with a Natural Genius. It would Not be huge game breaking compromise. a high level PC he doesn't need to worry about starting wealth: The BEWARE THE BATMAN cartoon (comic series) is the only batman We have that actually covers his early Career, and that version is Definitely NOTHING Like the Silver age or current batman (Beware the batman is from a 2000 era batman comic series, which is unrleated to the Retarded - BAT FAMILY era batman)
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 15, 2013 2:37:32 GMT
Natural Genius in Powers Unlimited 2 does actually have limitations on Physical skills. You might want to re-read the section on skills for the class.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 15, 2013 2:47:47 GMT
Adding the Weapons expert would solve the combat skill problem. the penalty is livable as well.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 15, 2013 2:51:24 GMT
You realize Weapon Expert really only has any effect on using guns? It does effectively nothing else for combat than giving you modern WPs
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 15, 2013 2:52:25 GMT
Adding the Weapons expert would solve the combat skill problem. the penalty is livable as well. and unnecessary. The Mental disciplines cover what is needed with ease. Not everything has to be solved with "dual" classing. ugh. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 15, 2013 2:58:05 GMT
ah I overlooked the combat trance bonuses... They are superhigh and would put regular combat abiliteis over the top.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 15, 2013 5:58:21 GMT
NG is also limited in rogue skill selection. (As well as the physicals.)
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 31, 2013 7:08:23 GMT
Wait, the Bat is a detective, right?
I mean I am not a DC fan outside of swamp thing and phantom stranger BUT I do have a few ban comics and he was always a detective. I don't have heros or anything along those lines but couldn't you just make him a smart gadget based detective with a martial arts HtH? I mean that's pretty much the Bat.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 31, 2013 7:47:58 GMT
There is a detective power category, but it fails to encompass more than Columbo.
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 31, 2013 7:58:14 GMT
What about wandering agent in N&SS?
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 31, 2013 14:17:33 GMT
What about wandering agent in N&SS? While you could just make the gadget based detective and that would certainly batman-esque, it falls very far short of THE Batman even if taken to 15th level and made a megahero.... To me he is at least multiple categories from multiple books. Natural Genius (PU2) and Dedicated Martial Artist (N&SS) being the two primary ones that should cover what he can do the best by and large. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 31, 2013 18:52:28 GMT
there is no need to give him Ninjitsu. that is only true of the 90s' batman, Other batmans are simply skilled in all martial art techniques..
and given his cape and cowl fighting style, That is DEFINITELY Not Ninjitsu.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 31, 2013 18:58:19 GMT
However, the wiki also says: "His primary form of combat is an idiosyncratic admixture of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Ninjitsu." So, while he probably understands the unique traits of the rest of the arts (Wing Chun's efficiency, Varma Adi's pressure points, Aikido's redirection, etc), it seems that he thinks the most important arts are those seven. Which makes sense, because I think it would be difficult for Batman to practice all of them in his spare time, and because the way he fights seems to somewhat reflect those seven arts.
The Bullshit on batman says he's mastered 127 styles..
This is from the batman wikia and comicvine ...
I'd say he mostly practices Taekwando with jiujitsu the only reason people keep mentioning ninjitsu is that he's mastered the arts of stealth and that automagically means ninjitsu to most people.
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