|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 7, 2013 22:14:19 GMT
Ehh.. there's 'Not' Really a way to do Bats with out 'multi classing' 1: You need ninjuitsu as a Martial art. 2: You need gear that would put you in the hardware class if not more than one of them. Weapons and vehicles and equipment. All the way from the Bat-wing, and Bat choppers to the many batmobiles, and 100s of weapons computers, gear etc. While some people might say 'Well you can buy super gear' that ignores the fact that in most every incarnation Batman has made at least half if not more than half of his gear on his own, which would put him into a hardware or gizmoteer category. 3: Then you have all the stuff from being 'The best detective in the world'. Which would put him under the super sluth category,Or... the Hunter... or both.... now these sorts of things could be explained under the mastermind class but that's still on top of the previous two. 4: On top of all that he's got physical skills out the ear. This might tie into the Dedicated martial artist, needed to get the ninja martial art. But there's alot there as well. 5: On top of all that he's got skills dedicated to running Wayne Enterprises/Industries. Not sure what class that would throw you into but it'd take a skill program or two to pull off. Those are just high points. Just looking at Wiki for a list of high points. Genius level intellect (Mastermind class) Peak Physical and mental conditioning. (Could be many classes, but the physical training or martial arts classes come to mind) Master: Martial Artist. (Martial arts classes) Acrobat Detective. (Super sluth class) Escapeologist. ( Um.. stage magician? ) Stratigist Swordsman (Weapons master?) Tactician (Mastermind class again.) Marksman (hunter?) Master of Stealth (Martial arts special powers) Master of Disguise. (?) Highly proficient with technology (hardware) Trained computer hacker ( Differing classes but hardware comes to mind) I would speculate you cannot build Bat's with just a single class. If you can, do so. Post it up so we can point out what's 'missing'. As I honestly don't think you can hit all the points.  |
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 0:39:29 GMT
Stop thinking in terms of classes (thats where everyone makes their mistake)
And think in terms of the character.
At his core what is he?
A highly trained Human.
The Mastermind with the tweak of May take Physical skill programs and may select one non-exclusive MAF at the cost of one program or an exclusive at the cost of two.
Fits the bill for what is wanted. Tack on the Mega template for the power of "obscene wealth" and the "weakness" of normal human (to cancel out the automatic common mega powers) for completeness.
Now if you are wanting the Frank Millers Marysue GAWDDAMN Batman...
You will be hard pressed to find any system that will allow it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 0:52:30 GMT
Again I still say this is "batman like" and would not actually allow for the number of skills he would likely have. Especially if you start trading off skill programs for physical and the MAF.
Now maybe as a mega in place of all the "super powers" he takes the MAF as I have been saying with MAPs, that would take away the need for the second class and still allow the advantage of wealth versus the weakness of only human....and also since you may not need all the MAPs you can choose you can swap what is the extra MAP choices for additional skill programs. Gizmoteeer programs would be a definite to choose.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 8, 2013 0:55:29 GMT
Again, it doesn't work. Mastermind doesn't get the specialized hardware, and you're already 'breaking' the class to shoe horn in the ninja arts. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you gotta break it again to take physical skills and Batman has -a-lot- of them. If not most or all of them. You're ignoring the martial arts, the acrobat, the escapeoligist, the swordsman, the marksman, the master of stealth, master of disguise.
You're kinda going "If you just give him every skill in the book and break the class you can make it in one class and add on super wealth.
But that doesn't really work. One, you're breaking the class two or three ways to do it, and two, it still won't hit all the bullet points.
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 0:57:24 GMT
Again I still say this is "batman like" and would not actually allow for the number of skills he would likely have. Especially if you start trading off skill programs for physical and the MAF. Now maybe as a mega in place of all the "super powers" he takes the MAF as I have been saying with MAPs, that would take away the need for the second class and still allow the advantage of wealth versus the weakness of only human.... Replace the common mps with the MAF?... hmmm... Possible... Do not forget however that MAPs can be traded in for Skill programs. (At the moment we have only established he "needs" 3) |
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:03:10 GMT
Again, it doesn't work. Mastermind doesn't get the specialized hardware, and you're already 'breaking' the class to shoe horn in the ninja arts. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure you gotta break it again to take physical skills and Batman has -a-lot- of them. If not most or all of them. You're ignoring the martial arts, the acrobat, the escapeoligist, the swordsman, the marksman, the master of stealth, master of disguise. You're kinda going "If you just give him every skill in the book and break the class you can make it in one class and add on super wealth. But that doesn't really work. One, you're breaking the class two or three ways to do it, and two, it still won't hit all the bullet points. Actually I think I came up with a solution without REALLY breaking the rules....acrobat can be done with acrobatics and gymnastics and a high PP. Swordsman is covered by ninjutsu since they are good with swords. Escapologist can be covered by a MAP and the escape artist skill, marksman can be sniper with archery and targeting since they could be used with thrown weapons. Stealth is covered by MAPs of ninjutsu. Master of Disguise can be part of an espionage skill program. I actually think the combination of Natural genius with Mega (replacing the free powers with the MAF Ninjutsu with the MAPs and trading one or two for additional skill programs, advantage of extreme wealth and disadvantage of only human) may actually come pretty close to emulating Batman very very well. Genius gets a crapload of skills and if you take a couple of gizmoteer skill programs, he could be able to make most of what he needs. You don't HAVE to be a a hardware expert to make what he has. Most of the vehicles are really just specialized normal vehicles and aren't really all THAT super per se. |
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:05:16 GMT
Again I still say this is "batman like" and would not actually allow for the number of skills he would likely have. Especially if you start trading off skill programs for physical and the MAF. Now maybe as a mega in place of all the "super powers" he takes the MAF as I have been saying with MAPs, that would take away the need for the second class and still allow the advantage of wealth versus the weakness of only human.... Replace the common mps with the MAF?... hmmm... Possible... Do not forget however that MAPs can be traded in for Skill programs. (At the moment we have only established he "needs" 3) Precisely. He NEEDS 3 (maybe 4) trade the others for Skill programs. Pick up gizmoteer programs to go with all the skill programs teh genius gets and man that is a pile of skills at very high percentages as well as the special martial art abilities he demonstrates. |
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 1:10:59 GMT
Replace the common mps with the MAF?... hmmm... Possible... Do not forget however that MAPs can be traded in for Skill programs. (At the moment we have only established he "needs" 3) Precisely. He NEEDS 3 (maybe 4) trade the others for Skill programs. Pick up gizmoteer programs to go with all the skill programs teh genius gets and man that is a pile of skills at very high percentages as well as the special martial art abilities he demonstrates. give me a day or two and I will see what I can write up (dammit! I gotta re-work my character sheet on him again!) |
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:11:51 GMT
The question is could this actually be book legal if done this way? On the surface it seems reasonable to do so.
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 1:22:02 GMT
The question is could this actually be book legal if done this way? On the surface it seems reasonable to do so. still not technically Book legal. HU2 removed the N&S option from the rules. Plus even were the Option still considered "legal" Masterminds are excluded from selecting physicals and HTH forms are listed as Physicals... |
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:26:19 GMT
They are BUT as a mega that can supercede the restriction for the MAF.
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 1:29:46 GMT
They are BUT as a mega that can supercede the restriction for the MAF. again technically no... The Mastermind in PU2 has been reclassified as a Mega-class in the second printing. I personally ignore this because it is just like the "revised" N&S a knee-jerk response to overwhelming whining to Kevin that its "over powered." |
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 8, 2013 1:30:44 GMT
"Is it really breaking them if I ignore big parts of their restrictions and bring in things from other books?"
yeah it's breaking them. Point of fact, they're already considered megas, so adding more mega powers onto them, then trading in those added mega powers for other things is against the book.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:33:06 GMT
They are BUT as a mega that can supercede the restriction for the MAF. again technically no... The Mastermind in PU2 has been reclassified as a Mega-class in the second printing. I personally ignore this because it is just like the "revised" N&S a knee-jerk response to overwhelming whining to Kevin that its "over powered." Good thing I have a 1st printing  |
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 1:36:22 GMT
The only way to do any Icon
Be it Bats, Supes, Spidey, Wolvie, etc...
Is to adjust the system to allow it.
How you go about it is the key.
I try to do it with as minimal abuse to the system as possible.
(make the Icon playable not just because it would be cool!)
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 8, 2013 1:40:39 GMT
I thnk then over ruling the genius as a mega and allowing the selection of phsycial programs (withthe ability to be a mega on top of the genius) is likely the best way to go. Honestly I don't think the genius SHOULD be a mega but that's just me.
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 8, 2013 2:33:43 GMT
I thnk then over ruling the genius as a mega and allowing the selection of phsycial programs (withthe ability to be a mega on top of the genius) is likely the best way to go. Honestly I don't think the genius SHOULD be a mega but that's just me.I am with you that score... But then I still use 1st printing of N&S as well; I did not see it as needing to be changed. (overpowered my ass...) |
|
|
|
Post by yilbber on Dec 13, 2013 9:57:19 GMT
Batman is a Mutliclass character. There is no problem making any one in the bat family, unless you plan on taking silver age characters into heroes unlimited. the Current versions from the bastardized Batman 52 era will work just fine without multiclassing too hard.
|
|
|
|
Post by 13eowulf on Dec 13, 2013 12:33:11 GMT
If I were gonna help create a Batman character I would start with the Rifter 37 expanded Mega-Class that has a duel-class option. I would then bend the rules on what classes could be combined, and duel class the Ancient Master with the Natural Genius.
I would then allow some ability substitution from the Ancient Master class to take Mystic Martial Arts abilities instead of some of the class abilities.
It isnt perfect in any way, but it is what I would do, or at least start with.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 13, 2013 15:32:17 GMT
No less valid than the other suggestions
|
|
|
|
Post by yilbber on Dec 14, 2013 0:04:49 GMT
for starters, I'd start Batman as a Natural Genius Category, With some physical and mental abilities, and insane wealth. Then give him a NJSS martial art at the usual cost for Special training Characters. I'd probably give him IsshinRyu given his reliance upon multiple dodge and circular parry. I'd next Stat up Nightwing as a Strong and defensive Character with Espionage education
Red Hood would be Hunter Vigilante with a martial Art (probably Triad Assasin, or Jiujitsu). Damian Wayne would be Fast with offensive training, and Who ever was the young robin would be fast and defensive. with High school Education. BatGirl would be Detective training with martial art, Probably isshin ryu.
Alfred, depending on the version, Retired Superspy straight up hth Elite.
Rhaas a guul HU2 human Immortal
Talia A guul - Superspy with Eugenic modification
Joker - Mastermind archetype (from Century station)
|
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 0:14:17 GMT
Batman is a Mutliclass character. There is no problem making any one in the bat family, unless you plan on taking silver age characters into heroes unlimited. the Current versions from the bastardized Batman 52 era will work just fine without multiclassing too hard. If there's no problem in making anyone in the Bat family...... how would you go about doing so? What Heroes class do you think fits them? (Not being pissy. I'm curious as to where you think they fit) |
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 0:19:43 GMT
for starters, I'd start Batman as a Natural Genius Category, With some physical and mental abilities, and insane wealth. Then give him a NJSS martial art at the usual cost for Special training Characters. I'd probably give him IsshinRyu given his reliance upon multiple dodge and circular parry. I'd next Stat up Nightwing as a Strong and defensive Character with Espionage education Red Hood would be Hunter Vigilante with a martial Art (probably Triad Assasin, or Jiujitsu). Damian Wayne would be Fast with offensive training, and Who ever was the young robin would be fast and defensive. with High school Education. BatGirl would be Detective training with martial art, Probably isshin ryu. Alfred, depending on the version, Retired Superspy straight up hth Elite. Rhaas a guul HU2 human Immortal Talia A guul - Superspy with Eugenic modification Joker - Mastermind archetype (from Century station) Not saying it wouldn't work, but you've gone from 'Not a problem' to combing mega classes with other stuff and throwing in huge amounts of physical skills with the Natural Genius and also adding on a NJSS Martial art (I actually trained in Isshin Ryu IRL, it was the martial art I learned growing up. It's useful, but it's NOT batman. lol )) So even by your start you're breaking classes two or three ways to get it to work. Which we can do. Breaking the rules isn't going to get us beaten with phone books, but if you have to combine two or three classes to get it to work, if not more, and one of them was already a mega class to start with, then it's not really easy nor remotely by the rules. I'm not even sure what you're meaning by "Strong and Defensive" or a 'Fast' Character or what not. Those aren't classes or .. anything. |
|
|
|
Post by Jaymz on Dec 14, 2013 0:53:40 GMT
Actual fast/strongis the physical training class
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 2:17:34 GMT
I should be able to get one of my 3 Batman variants up this weekend.
|
|
|
|
Post by yilbber on Dec 14, 2013 2:35:34 GMT
Natural Genius : Class from Pu2 The Natural genius has The most skills and has minor powers at the same time.
the defensitve/fast : HU 2 Physical training categories.
HU does not use Martial arts powers, The standard cost of learning a Martial is 1 skill program or 3 Physical. The only Reason i suggested isshin ryu is because it offers multiple dodge and circular parry, the standard batman kungfu stuff.
Not only that, but the NJSS Powers are Lame as they are in the world of HU2, they would need a Rifts japan or Some conversion to 2nd Edition format to be useful.
Eugenic mods (for a commercial standpoint) appear in AU:GG, and the SS version appears in Pu2.
Mastermind Archetype just has high stats and skills, no powers, but powers are optional. the version that survives his face getting peeled off and so on, would have toxicology, Chemistry, Forensics, Probably some Minor powers such as Physical resistance, Radiate Horror Factor, and some skill in surgery.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 4:15:04 GMT
Yes but as shown they don't quite fit. Natural Genius doesn't have the huge huge huge amount of physical skills that Bat man has. Doesn't have the unending array of weaponry, vechiles, gimmic tech, etc that he has, and is glaringly missing the Ninjutisu that he's claimed to have trained in, in most every incarnation.
"You can do it, but you gotta break/and or combine two or three classes to do it" Is about as close as we've come. Which is to say, by the book, you can't even come close.
Nightwing is pretty much Bats 2.0 and as pointed out, has taken the cowl a couple of times (And might actually be wearing it 'now'? I'm not sure, I think someone said that)
Alot of the characters and classes you've put forth skim the top, but again don't touch their tech, their gear and to get um to work you have to add advanced N&SS martial arts to them, which can be done in some cases, but many of the ones you've chosen already have special training and such, which I think prevents the sort of skill program swapping out that would be needed, and/or by sacrificing complete skill programs to try and acquire the martial art, would leave them severely lacking in the class that he or she started out with, thus making them 'fail' when you try and put that combo up as a viable source of character creation.
Most of the above totally dodge the money aspect too. Can't just add it on to the NG catagory as NG is already a Mega. Unless we're proposing Mega-mega-mega classes. Which if we're honest, is needed to reproduce things like Hulk, or Thor or Superman.
|
|
|
|
Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 5:59:59 GMT
As I pointed out earlier Sci-Fi
Money solves the gear issue. Bats did not build all of it. In fact there are multiple stories that focus on the hunch backed recluse that actually does build half of Bats' gear. The other half is R&D from Wayne Tech. (Multiple stories about that too).
Gear is solved.
Next issue?
Ninjitsu.
It all depends on if we "have" to stay within just the HU books or if we can incorporate other lines. Incorporating N&S was tricky/complex in HUr and HU2 doesnt even give it as an option (except for only one class which is not covered until Century Station).
|
|
|
|
Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 7:32:24 GMT
As I pointed out, you're ignoring that there are many stories that say Bats DID design and build alot of it. While he used Wayne tech to get it 'lost' or manufactured he still desgined alot of it, and made much of it in the Batcave. There's three or four scenes of this in the new batman movies alone. Doing the Bat-a-rangs,i the cowl, the armor, the cape and stuff. Often modifying tech from Morgan freeman. Also 'Mega money' is one of the benefits of the Mega category, that a NG can't get as he's in his own Mega catagory himself. Gear is not solved. Ninjitsu, only works if you ignore the purposeful limitations based on the NG category. (The limitation of the physical) And again you're 'breaking the class' to allow it. So again. "We can do it" but only if you break and or combine two or three classes here. |
|
|
|
Post by yilbber on Dec 14, 2013 7:33:03 GMT
you also realize if you stick to a non silver age version you can leave out all the extra bat crap.
|
|
