Should Robot (vehicle etc) Combat be separate from HTH?

[Jaymz]

It is my opinion that Robot combat training (this includes Power Armour and Space Fighter combat in Phaseworld) should be a completely separate thing from your HTH training. It is a whole separate skill set to me and as such should not just tack on to your existing bonuses.

Instead it should have it's own table of progression for elite and basic levels, as should aircraft, vehicles etc.

One of thing that sort of irked my a bit about the Palladium system was the fact all vehicles (robots or otherwise) actually allowed you to dodge or parry faster than thought. I'll explain: If I as a human can dodge at a certain reaction time why is it my movements, which dictate how quickly something can react, can be enhanced to quicker than my own reaction without any form of automated sensor system reacting for me or any form of thought control? Virtually all other games involving robots, vehicles etc, unless some form of advanced controls (thought controlled, computer reactive sensors etc) actually penalize you for using a vehicles by slowing your reaction times by a certain amount. This makes sense to me.

Splitting the Robot combat training (and other vehicles too for that matter) would better make the distinction between these thigns and allow for things like the telemental helmet (HU) to be more effective in what it is supposed to do.

Just my thoughts. Comments?

[colonel wolfe]

I think it should be a different set of stats.

[yilbber]

in Phaseworld, Vehicle Combat is Different from Power armor combat.
1. Dodges require piloting rolls.
2. You have dramatically less actions per turn then in hand to hand.
3. You don't get Automatic parries or Dodges unless you are very Different scale.
4. Some Gms forget that just because you have 10 actions per melee, you have 10 actions in a vehicle.

[damianmagecraft]

Dec 19, 2013 22:55:41 GMT yilbber said:

in Phaseworld, Vehicle Combat is Different from Power armor combat.
1. Dodges require piloting rolls.
2. You have dramatically less actions per turn then in hand to hand.
3. You don't get Automatic parries or Dodges unless you are very Different scale.
4. Some Gms forget that just because you have 10 actions per melee, you have 10 actions in a vehicle.

can I get a page and book cite for that?

[yilbber]

Vehicle Combat rules: You generally get one action per phase. The piloting roll phase, the Shooting phase, the Resolution phase.
Vehicles get Tilt dodges "for free" and any other kind of dodge requires 1. enough speed 2. A moderate to hard control penalty.
That's why the basic only adds 1 Vehicle Action and 2 for the expert.
That's why ship rules generally let you fire a weapon system once per turn, unless it has a gunner or gunnery system.
That's why Vehicles Can pull a Speed escape by rolling their speed Class + d20 to avoid it.

[yilbber]

and in SDC games, you have to worry about every incoming attack causing internal damage

[damianmagecraft]

Still not a Book and page #.
No offense but I wait independently verify the veracity of the claim.

[Jaymz]

The only thing I am aware of in Phaseworld is Fighter Basic and Fighter Elite which is just a Space Fighter version of RCB and RCE.

[yilbber]

Rifts Ultimate Edition does Not include any provisions about vehicle combat

Phaseworld references Mutants in orbit, which in turn references HU2 or TMNT guide to the universe, which actually means I'm right. Rifts never had a vehicle combat system and Neither the system from robotech 1st or 2nd edition got transfered over.

[Jaymz]

I ask as well then, can you cite some page numbers for us to reference?

Also you didn't answer the original question. Should Robot/PA combat be its own thing and separated from HTH training? Also should Vehicles and Aircraft also have their own like Robots and PA do?

[yilbber]

Also note, the most recent rules in vehicle combat appear in Dead Reigns' Endless Dead.
I'd venture to say HU2 GM's guide has even more on this subject, As well as HU2.
TMNT guide to the universe and Road Hogs have rules that are also applicable.
In the Rifter Construction system for vehicle rules also assume the NJSS Rules are being used for vehicle combat.

Palladium has gotten lazy and many GM nazis (such as the new UE fans) apparently need it to have a Rifts title to make it applicable.

[Jaymz]

And....you still haven't answered the original questions.

I know there are air combat rules and vehicle combat rules. I am not talking about such things. I am talking about vehicles and aircraft getting their own basic and elite training like Robots and Power Armour (and Space Fighters in Phaseworld) do. Furthermore I am asking if that training should be it's own and independent of HTH training.

[yilbber]

They do not, because they decided that since the majority of combat is player vs Npc and not vehicle vs vehicle, to not include the combat rules from their other lines. the Robots in Rifts are advanced machines that can imitate human range of motion and not the cumbersome slow moving behemoths of anime tropedom.

if combat was Giant steam mechs that required semaphore and multiple crews to establish control, then yes, it would make sense to include a seperate combat system.
but in space. being able to fly fast and hit something is actually very difficult, as anyone who played wingcomander or other physics based shooters have found out. your window to actually hit a target ( not moving like an F14) is very low.

[Jaymz]

Yet Space Fighters in Phaseworld DO in fact get special training JUST like Robots and Power Armour do so why not Vehicles or Aircraft?

And why should they be tied to how good your HTH training is?

I've seen plenty of guys in videos that fly fighter planes (easiest comparison since phaseworld has fighters) yet admit they cannot fight for crap on the ground but as per Palladium's rules to be better in a fighter you'd have to be better on the ground. It's counter-intuitive and only done this way in Palladium.

[yilbber]

Vehicle combat rules Palladium use Do not give a player all of his actions per melee, many end up being unusable. thats why earlier in threads people were told to get players to roll skill checks in combat when using a vehicle.

for example: Do you know what the actual method for a Defense Station to fire on a Moving ship?
... Here's A hint; It's not a d20 Strike Roll.
It's a Roll on the skill "Read Sensory Instruments , Followed by a Successful Defense Systems roll, (or Weapon System roll) but Defense systems gets a superior bonus. Then it's D20 Roll with modified bonus (most not based on the character's abilities, since they are relying totally upon 2ndary input such as targeting systems and various levels of immresion). Then the opponent gets a tilt dodge (Automatic, roll at -15, failure means no dodge and out of control), and a Chance to roll an automatic dodge at +2. (again without other bonuses.). Then Depending on the Ships's scale they either get hit and take damage to a random location (it's not main body shots) unless a player calls that out).. Various parts of the ship may be hit, However, Shields usually negate this part till they are down. in an SDC game, you then have to ablate the natural armor rating, with various weapons capable of doing half damage to armor rating ( Inferred, Not Directly stated, such as plasma weapons, since they are Miniature area of effects). then once that armor is gone, Every hit to main body can cause a critical.

[damianmagecraft]

Dec 20, 2013 4:36:09 GMT yilbber said:

Also note, the most recent rules in vehicle combat appear in Dead Reigns' Endless Dead.
I'd venture to say HU2 GM's guide has even more on this subject, As well as HU2.
TMNT guide to the universe and Road Hogs have rules that are also applicable.
In the Rifter Construction system for vehicle rules also assume the NJSS Rules are being used for vehicle combat.

Palladium has gotten lazy and many GM nazis (such as the new UE fans) apparently need it to have a Rifts title to make it applicable.

Its not that they are "nazis" about it.
it is that not every player owns every single book ever published by palladium. (unlike some of us).
So therefore rules that are relevant to a setting need to be in books from that setting.
Discussing rules from N&S, TMNT, or HU in a Rifts debate will not win you any points (especially if you continue to avoid providing citations for your rules claims).

[damianmagecraft]

Dec 1, 2013 13:33:21 GMT Jaymz said:

It is my opinion that Robot combat training (this includes Power Armour and Space Fighter combat in Phaseworld) should be a completely separate thing from your HTH training. It is a whole separate skill set to me and as such should not just tack on to your existing bonuses.

Instead it should have it's own table of progression for elite and basic levels, as should aircraft, vehicles etc.

One of thing that sort of irked my a bit about the Palladium system was the fact all vehicles (robots or otherwise) actually allowed you to dodge or parry faster than thought. I'll explain: If I as a human can dodge at a certain reaction time why is it my movements, which dictate how quickly something can react, can be enhanced to quicker than my own reaction without any form of automated sensor system reacting for me or any form of thought control? Virtually all other games involving robots, vehicles etc, unless some form of advanced controls (thought controlled, computer reactive sensors etc) actually penalize you for using a vehicles by slowing your reaction times by a certain amount. This makes sense to me.

Splitting the Robot combat training (and other vehicles too for that matter) would better make the distinction between these thigns and allow for things like the telemental helmet (HU) to be more effective in what it is supposed to do.

Just my thoughts. Comments?

I can see that...
but how would it account for the highly dextrous? (greater eye/hand coordination is going to translate into faster reaction times)
How closely would it match ground bound combat?
etc...

[Jaymz]

Well I see like this. It gets it some 15 level setup as HTH does. I would allow PP bonuses to apply while piloting the chosen unit as it does to HTH.

This way you can have the "piloting genius" who couldn't throw a punch to save his life if you so chose.

[yilbber]

Dec 20, 2013 5:44:08 GMT damianmagecraft said:

Dec 1, 2013 13:33:21 GMT Jaymz said:

It is my opinion that Robot combat training (this includes Power Armour and Space Fighter combat in Phaseworld) should be a completely separate thing from your HTH training. It is a whole separate skill set to me and as such should not just tack on to your existing bonuses.

Instead it should have it's own table of progression for elite and basic levels, as should aircraft, vehicles etc.

One of thing that sort of irked my a bit about the Palladium system was the fact all vehicles (robots or otherwise) actually allowed you to dodge or parry faster than thought. I'll explain: If I as a human can dodge at a certain reaction time why is it my movements, which dictate how quickly something can react, can be enhanced to quicker than my own reaction without any form of automated sensor system reacting for me or any form of thought control? Virtually all other games involving robots, vehicles etc, unless some form of advanced controls (thought controlled, computer reactive sensors etc) actually penalize you for using a vehicles by slowing your reaction times by a certain amount. This makes sense to me.

Splitting the Robot combat training (and other vehicles too for that matter) would better make the distinction between these thigns and allow for things like the telemental helmet (HU) to be more effective in what it is supposed to do.

Just my thoughts. Comments?

....

Mutants in Orbit is a Rifts book and tells us Flat out to get a Copy of those 2 books for Any Missing Gaps in Vehicle rules. Phaseworld reprints half of the rules from Macross II for fleet to fleet and Starship combat in Sourcebook 1. Conversion book 1 States that the rules from Other games do not suddenly stop applying just because it's brought into rifts,  that's why books like Bionics sourcebook had to expand things like repairs and such. Heck the RIFTS gM screen (that originalyl came out) had created a Salvage and Repair system wholecloth with just a few tables, that never appeared in the rules elsewhere.

[Jaymz]

Yes I know. Again I am not talking about the vehicle combat RULES. I am talking about giving them their own TRAINING (like Robots, PA and Space fighters get in a Basic and Elite form) and whether or not they should actually be tied to HTH training as the present training is or be treated separately on their own.

I do not think they should be tied to HTH as they are now and I think Vehicles and Aircraft should get training like that of Space fighters, Robots and PA.

[yilbber]

Dec 20, 2013 16:37:03 GMT yilbber said:

Dec 20, 2013 5:44:08 GMT damianmagecraft said:

    

Under the 1st Edition TMNt/HU Rules, It was possible to have no combat skills but have advanced levels in various weapons.  Infact it was a racial ability of various aliens in TMNT GUIDE TO THE UNIVERSE.

As for HU2, IT DOES NOT DO ANIME TROPES WELL.
and people who try for it get pun(ished), punked, or thrown out of games for it.

instead of calling for new rules, Learn what the rules are!.
in Rifts, you have the Turbo Jockey
In the SDC games, you had various mechanic classes where only the Genius/Hardware types were allowed to get skills over 100% to offset (rapidly growing penalties)

Rifts doesn't need a telemental Upgrade, because it's ASSUMED TO BE NORMAL TECHNOLOGY (or using Vehicle head jacks)...
That's why they have the Lesser and Elite versions of Power armor /robot combat.
the Psi tech PCC is outdated/Useless as per ultimate edition, it's Once unique bonuses now apply to anyone with those Telemechanic powers. Why did it happen? because before Psyscape, those new powers Did NOT exist. What did the books say to do? Give those powers for FREE to existing Telemechanic players. PU1 says the same thing too.

[Jaymz]

I have to ask are you even reading the posts?

Telemental helmet was just and example...

If you won't answer the question of "giving them their own TRAINING (like Robots, PA and Space fighters get in a Basic and Elite form) and whether or not they should actually be tied to HTH training as the present training is or be treated separately on their own." then why are you answering?

The question - Should the present training for Robots, PA and Space Fighters be separated from HTH training (IE have their own level progression, bonuses and attacks per melee completely separate from HTH training) or no?

Secondary question - Should Vehicles and Aircraft get specialized training like Robots, PA and Space fighters or no?

I do not care about what combat rules there are or where they are as that is not what I am asking about. Many of those rules can be applied and used with Robots, PA and Space Fighters in addition to the training anyway so they are not relevant to the discussion.

[damianmagecraft]

PA combat should remain as is imho.(being its just a worn suit.)
But I could see a separate combat skill for bots.
Vehicles... (Yes there "rules" in place) could do with better combat rules as well (similar in nature to hth/pa just for simplicity if nothing else.)

[yilbber]

the Existing combat driving and combat pilot skills were meant to address this issue. Same with the starfighter vehicle combat skills and ... what you want would require dumping what already exists and dredge up a new system from the bottom up.

[Jaymz]

Dec 20, 2013 19:27:52 GMT yilbber said:

the Existing combat driving and combat pilot skills were meant to address this issue. Same with the starfighter vehicle combat skills and ... what you want would require dumping what already exists and dredge up a new system from the bottom up.

Apparently you are not reading what I am typing.

The star fighter rules as you called them, as it pertains to Phaseworld (which you originally referenced) also have a SKILL (basic and elite) which Robots and PA also have. I am not suggesting the dumping of ANYTHING but the addition of specialized trainging ( in other words a SKILL) for vehicles and aircraft just already exists for the other items I just mentioned. This woudl be in addition to the combat rules.

Combat driving as a skill does NOT address what I am asking. Read the skill and you will understand this. Just as Combat flying does not address it as evidenced by the fact Phaseworld (as well as Robotech which also has combat flying) have Basic and Elite Training for Mecha (both) and Space fighters (Phaseworld). If the rules covered this as you say then the Basic and Elite piloting skills are unneeded. As we know they are needed and as such it is my opinion that Vehicles and Aircraft should receive it as well since for the most part these types of craft are just as high tech and complex as the others.

[Jaymz]

Dec 20, 2013 19:20:45 GMT damianmagecraft said:

PA combat should remain as is imho.(being its just a worn suit.)
But I could see a separate combat skill for bots.
Vehicles... (Yes there "rules" in place) could do with better combat rules as well (similar in nature to hth/pa just for simplicity if nothing else.)

Actually what I do is this

PA Basic - Allows you to keep all of your HTH Attacks but only use half the bonuses of your HTH training and WP skills. (no extras unless the suit gives bonuses to PP or somesuch which honestly most shouldn't unless cybernetically linked)

PA Elite - Allows to use full bonuses from your HTH Training as well as full WP bonuses

Why? Because unless thought controlled or cybernetically linked, there is no way in hell a PA will allow you to move quicker than you already do. Palladium is pretty much the only game I have ever played that automatically allows all mecha to let you move quicker than thought and dodge quicker than not wearing/piloting mecha. All others usually have a penalty of some amount to your dodging/dexterity based actions or at best no penalty. The only bonuses again coming from thought control of cyberlinking.

[damianmagecraft]

Dec 20, 2013 20:53:37 GMT Jaymz said:

Why? Because unless thought controlled or cybernetically linked, there is no way in hell a PA will allow you to move quicker than you already do. Palladium is pretty much the only game I have ever played that automatically allows all mecha to let you move quicker than thought and dodge quicker than not wearing/piloting mecha. All others usually have a penalty of some amount to your dodging/dexterity based actions or at best no penalty. The only bonuses again coming from thought control of cyberlinking.

I have to disagree on the idea that only thought control/cyber links would provide additional boni...
Heinlein shows us in Starship Troopers how a suit could make one faster in it through the use of a "negative feedback" design. (the description of this is found around chapter 3 or 4 IIRC). The NF design is how I picture PA to function.

What I did was add an additional degree of training.
Basic - only HTH bonuses (and any suit inherent bonuses) apply
Advanced - book version of basic renamed
Elite - as per book

there are additional tweaks to this...
Basic applies to all mecha this skill only needs to be taken once (requires pilot rpa)
Advanced applies to one type of mecha (titan series, GB series, etc...) this skill must be taken for each type you wish its bonuses to apply (requires basic)
Elite applies one specific mecha (super samas, Tarantula GB, GB Killer, etc...) This skill must be taken for each mecha you wish its bonuses to apply. (requires Advanced training in the series the mecha is from).

Pilot RPA only applies to operating the mecha in a non combat fashion. Any thing over a light jog requires a control roll. Combat may be attempted but APM are halved, bonuses are Physical Prowess (if any) only.

[Jaymz]

Ah but negative feedback to me is just a renamed form of some kind of cybernetic/linked in system. There is nothing to indicate Rifts era PA have anything like this. THAT is the issue. There is no explanation as to how the damn things work.

And again I have no issue if a "linked in" system allows for bonuses beyond your physical capability. It makes sense to allow it but without such a system then nope not going to happen nor am I going to allow it.

[damianmagecraft]

Dec 21, 2013 14:11:48 GMT Jaymz said:

Ah but negative feedback to me is just a renamed form of some kind of cybernetic/linked in system. There is nothing to indicate Rifts era PA have anything like this. THAT is the issue. There is no explanation as to how the damn things work.

And again I have no issue if a "linked in" system allows for bonuses beyond your physical capability. It makes sense to allow it but without such a system then nope not going to happen nor am I going to allow it.

the way NG is described its hundreds of thousands of sensors pressed against the body. Press against these sensors and the try to re establish the equal pressure. A hard press means a hard and fast reaction a harder press equals a harder and faster reaction. The suits make the soldier faster and stronger.

[yilbber]

The technological Aspects of Rifts mecha was explained away in old threads and old books. the problem is, None of this was retained in the revised books. For example, Converison book 1 unrevised goes in large part explain how rifts robots fight, and how they use Headjacks for piloting, Other mecha used Telemental method, Which is more like brain mapping, and some mecha (such as the Craptacular Ebsis / Bioroid combat bonuses in the 1st edition southern cross books ) . , with the worst combat bonuses are manual control.
there's also the fact that all the CS and Robot Pilot Rcc/OCC have a headjack and Glitterboy is too.


Bots that don't have such systems have lower bonuses and it's usually listed on their own hth table.