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Post by yilbber on Dec 21, 2013 19:13:58 GMT
It wasn't until warlords of russia was Vehicle control headjacks were used Emphatically and given Bonuses.
before that it was just combat bonuses, bla bla bla and Hagan had a superior set of bonuses because of telemechanics
Telemechanics had no conformity bonuses but that has changed now.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 21, 2013 22:18:11 GMT
Ok can you cite a page number because I do not every recall cb1 ever saying anything like that.
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 21, 2013 22:35:26 GMT
It is my opinion that Robot combat training (this includes Power Armour and Space Fighter combat in Phaseworld) should be a completely separate thing from your HTH training. It is a whole separate skill set to me and as such should not just tack on to your existing bonuses. Personally, I agree... but there are exceptions:
Obviously the pilot's reflexes can, and do, play a part in a mecha's ability to operate in a close quarters combat environment. The vast majority of mecha in which the pilot controls the thing using joysticks or master-slave motion trace systems or other conventional interfaces aren't going to be able to respond as fast as the human operator, and their array of potential maneuvers isn't going to be quite as wide or varied. For the most part, hand-to-hand combat in a robot should be an entirely separate skill set. Even mecha which are controlled in part by a connection directly to the pilot's brain are not going to entirely equal or exceed what the operator itself is capable of. Here's where that "but" comes in... Mecha that are mechanically capable of matching or exceeding the human body's range of motion and/or response time, and employ control systems that permit their operators to take maximum advantage of that trait, should receive the operator's bonuses in addition to their own. I'm talking about mecha that use semi-master slave motion trace systems, full body motion trace systems, and direct speed-of-thought mind interfaces. These give the operator the ability to do stuff that the pilot's own body potentially couldn't do, or allow the robot to react as fast or faster than a flesh and blood body... but with fewer limitations. To give a few examples of what I'm talking about: - Arm Slaves (Full Metal Panic!)
Uses a semi-master slave motion trace system that allows the mecha to react with near-human speed, and at bilateral factors exceeding 1.0, to achieve a greater range of motion than a flesh and blood body is capable of. 3rd Gen and later Arm Slaves in the series can literally perform kung-fu if their operators really want to. (Belfangan Clouseau of MITHRIL does this to Sousuke in The Second Raid)
- Advanced Valkyries using a full Brain-Direct Interface (Macross Plus, Macross Frontier, Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy)
Uses a direct, speed-of-thought mindlink to permit the mecha to perform any maneuver the pilot can picture in his mind. Initially a bit unreliable, but totally workable with cybernetic implants. Valkyries don't normally resort to fisties if they can help it, and the high-speed, high-agility combat doesn't exactly suit hand-to-hand combat, but the capability is there on the YF-21 Sturmvogel prototype, YF-27-5 Shaher ♀, and VF-27 Lucifer.
- Mobile Fighters (Mobile Fighter G Gundam)
Uses a full-body motion trace system that enables the mecha to precisely mimic the fighting styles of the master martial artists operating them. They don't have the same lightning-fast reaction times as the shouty kung-fu masters piloting them, but they can do everything Bruce Lee could and more.
- Bioroids (Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, Robotech's Masters Saga)
Uses full motor nervous system redirection to capture and redirect motor and sensory nerve impulses from the pilot's body to the mecha and back. This has the practical effect of turning the Bioroid into a LITERAL extension of the pilot's body... allowing it to match or exceed the flesh-and-blood pilot's own ability to fight in close combat, ensuring that the mecha can do just as much (if not more) than an extremely fit master martial artist. Mind you, it ALSO carries the downside that the pilot feels pain when his mecha is damaged.
- Mechanicum Knights (Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer 40,000: Horus Heresy)
Same as the Bioroids, except the pilot's inbuilt cybernetics allow the pilot direct thought-link control over more than just the mecha's limbs. He can perform far more actions at once with greater speed and ability than his flesh-and-blood body ever could, and can employ both his machine and flesh senses at the same time with minimal ill effect.
- Adeptus Astartes Power Armor (Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer 40,000: Horus Heresy)
Direct-hardplug into the wearer's nervous system. Realtime motion tracing with power enhancement permits the operator to move just as fast or faster than his flesh and blood body would permit, and greatly enhances his endurance and strength.
- Mortar Headds (Five Star Stories)
Uses a direct EEG-based control system combined with motion trace mechanics on a genetically engineered superhuman pilot, allowing the mecha to react every bit as fast as the already superhuman abilities of the pilot's own body. (In practical terms, the pilot is the limiting factor... most mortar headds can easily keep up with even the fastest pilot, so the mecha's abilities are more down to the pilot than its own hardware most of the time.)
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 22, 2013 0:15:44 GMT
Oh I have no issue with the types of systems you are citing as allowing it. I even mentioned as much earlier.  |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 22, 2013 0:29:20 GMT
Oh I have no issue with the types of systems you are citing as allowing it. I even mentioned as much earlier. Just thought I'd give a wee bit o' context for my stance... |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 22, 2013 1:03:25 GMT
Thought of an example unit that should fall into both categories... the RX-0 Unicorn series Gundams from Mobile Suit Gundam UC.
Under normal operating conditions, they're controlled with the standard control set and shouldn't get the bonuses from the pilot. Once they're operating with their NT-D systems active, they gain that speed of thought control suite, and should benefit from the operator's combat bonuses too.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 22, 2013 1:15:26 GMT
It should also be mentioned that it depends on what level detail you want in the game.
For the most part I believe the current set up was designed with the concept its easier to add in your head/ on the fly than divide.
Me I like the system in place with the mods I added; but only as they apply to exo-suits/power armor.
Separate combat skills should be used for bots and vehicles.
But they too should be similar to the current combat system (d20) and not skill checks (d100).
The current combat system is "clumsy" enough as is w/o adding the skill checks to it.
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 22, 2013 1:25:17 GMT
It should also be mentioned that it depends on what level detail you want in the game. For the most part I believe the current set up was designed with the concept its easier to add in your head/ on the fly than divide. Me I like the system in place with the mods I added; but only as they apply to exo-suits/power armor. Separate combat skills should be used for bots and vehicles. But they too should be similar to the current combat system (d20) and not skill checks (d100). The current combat system is "clumsy" enough as is w/o adding the skill checks to it. Oh I agree Damian. Basically for robots/vehicles/aircraft I just give them their own 15 level table ala hth training and allow PP to add to those. |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 22, 2013 1:34:41 GMT
It should also be mentioned that it depends on what level detail you want in the game. For the most part I believe the current set up was designed with the concept its easier to add in your head/ on the fly than divide. Me I like the system in place with the mods I added; but only as they apply to exo-suits/power armor. Separate combat skills should be used for bots and vehicles. But they too should be similar to the current combat system (d20) and not skill checks (d100). The current combat system is "clumsy" enough as is w/o adding the skill checks to it. Well, the level of detail is also affected by exactly which game or setting you intend to use. I'm rather lucky in that, since I run all my games in the Macross-verse, it's very easy to consolidate skill sets and MECT-style training bonuses into a few broad, general-purpose sets that cover virtually every type of mecha a player is likely to use or encounter. Gundam's pretty much the same way too. I don't have to worry about bonuses for piloting different kinds of craft, or MECT bonus sets for each individual plane. Pretty much lumped all H2H-relevant mecha combat sets into "piloting". |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 22, 2013 8:45:24 GMT
Ok can you cite a page number because I do not every recall cb1 ever saying anything like that. It's inferred in Numerous places, for one The Robotech Rifts Crossover, area, The SC 1st Edition Control notes area, the Return of the masters included even mroe stuff about control systems in mecha... In Mutants in orbit they have the VRRD robots, which are similar to various anime Thought projection systems. The real problem is You guys don't want to use the Vehicle combat system from the Palladium lines. when they Work just fine as is. Vehicle combat is either gunboat or chase style, and it's not the same as Robot vs rObot or Robot vs human. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 22, 2013 8:46:54 GMT
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 22, 2013 14:41:22 GMT
A - Inferrence doesn't make it fact as each person will or can get a different inference. Also In respect the Robotech section, this was when they still had "thinking Caps" which they no longer do. Also, if you are unwilling to post a page number then don't bring it up. You are making the claim so the onus is on you to provide the source.
B - VRRDS is similar yes. Just as the Robot Character in Triax is. I am not arguing against such systems if you read what I posted and such systems are not he same as normal "piloting" of craft.
C - No the problem is you are not understanding what I have asked or what others have actually discussed and that is ADDING to ENHANCE the rules as is. You keep saying vehicles are not the same as Robots yet Phaseworld shows us that it very well is or can be by adding "Fighter Combat Basic and Elite" to the mix. Which is easy enough to implement for atmospheric fighter planes. That leaves us with only one man combat vehicles left in the cold for no other reason than, in my opinion, they didn't think about it or care and they want Mecha to rule the day ala Battletech where vehicles are fragile as all get out compared to Battlemechs, which to me is just wrong.
D - No official vehicle combat rules were published in a Rifter so those would be optional. That being said, as you have already said, the combat rules themselves are fine but I am not discussing the combat rules themselves but the skill aspect. The two are not the same.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 22, 2013 17:54:24 GMT
Well. let's put it this way, Without the advanced dogfighting skills, A pilot Will only get 1 Vehicle Manuever per turn. with them he gets 2 to 4. and sometimes more.
Also note: In the vehicle rules Once the vehicle move is done, He Still gets to Fire as many times as he has Remaining actions left.
in short, while on a vehicle Any shot that isn't called will have a random hit. A pretty dangerous weakness IMO.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 22, 2013 18:00:29 GMT
Well. let's put it this way, Without the advanced dogfighting skills, A pilot Will only get 1 Vehicle Manuever per turn. with them he gets 2 to 4. and sometimes more. Also note: In the vehicle rules Once the vehicle move is done, He Still gets to Fire as many times as he has Remaining actions left. in short, while on a vehicle Any shot that isn't called will have a random hit. A pretty dangerous weakness IMO. still waiting on those page # citations... |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 22, 2013 18:15:34 GMT
Well. let's put it this way, Without the advanced dogfighting skills, A pilot Will only get 1 Vehicle Manuever per turn. with them he gets 2 to 4. and sometimes more. Also note: In the vehicle rules Once the vehicle move is done, He Still gets to Fire as many times as he has Remaining actions left. in short, while on a vehicle Any shot that isn't called will have a random hit. A pretty dangerous weakness IMO. He will definitely get more as the Fighter combat skills in Phaseworld ADD to your HTH. You'll get a minimum of 6 Again I am not talking about the rules as they are but adding to them via skills like what Robots, PA and space fighters already have. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 2:55:42 GMT
The rules Were never printed in a Rifts book The file mentioned above Pulls from ALL the books: Hu2, Ninjas Superspies, TMNT guide to the universe ,Road Hogs, And Trucking Turtles and rifter 33. the ninjas and superspies version is without TMF and a majority of the combat options.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 2:56:36 GMT
There was only one small Edit, and that was to Fix the Mutant in Orbit Drive system with the module System of AU with modifications from Rifts Manhunter.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 23, 2013 3:19:31 GMT
The rules Were never printed in a Rifts book The file mentioned above Pulls from ALL the books: Hu2, Ninjas Superspies, TMNT guide to the universe ,Road Hogs, And Trucking Turtles and rifter 33. the ninjas and superspies version is without TMF and a majority of the combat options. nice evasion tactic there. Still no page numbers produced for independent confirmation to the veracity of your claims... Why are you avoiding such a simple request? |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 4:08:20 GMT
Go read the documents and stop trying to troll these are copied from OCR'd versions of the books.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 23, 2013 4:16:24 GMT
Go read the documents and stop trying to troll these are copied from OCR'd versions of the books. its not my responsibility to do your work. I own over 300 palladium books. at least 3 different print runs of every core. I am not wasting my valuable time searching through the books for data that may or may not exist. If you will not provide acceptable citations to back your claims then it is not I who is trolling. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 23, 2013 4:49:30 GMT
Additionally...
Every OCR'd document I own shows the data exactly as it appears in HC format. (that includes the page numbers)
If yours do not then that makes your sources suspect since that is proof of editing by an outside agency. (this can include additions to the text that can only be viewed as house rules).
At this point anything you say concerning the rules is to be viewed as misinformed (at best).
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 23, 2013 5:12:17 GMT
Go read the documents and stop trying to troll these are copied from OCR'd versions of the books. Respectfully... either give the men the page numbers they need to validate your information, or admit you made it up. As you made the claim contrary to what the common understanding apparently is, the burden of proof is yours. The more your dally and refuse, the more they'll assume you're trying to BS them. This avoidance game only hurts you in the long run. A - Inferrence doesn't make it fact as each person will or can get a different inference. Also In respect the Robotech section, this was when they still had "thinking Caps" which they no longer do. Also, if you are unwilling to post a page number then don't bring it up. You are making the claim so the onus is on you to provide the source. Eh... I don't think that's actually the "thinking cap" at work. Wasn't that, instead, the so-called "man-machine link" that Carl Macek's post-facto take on what Protoculture actually was/did in play? Either way, not valid, but yeah... I don't think there really need to even be that many skills when it comes to robot operation. Close combat is mostly a matter of "put what limb where", and as such really ought to be covered under basic piloting for a humanoid robot. Most robots aren't really designed to get more inventive than "put fist into face" or "swing sword at X angle" if they're deprived of their close combat weapons... so even if the pilot is a martial arts master, the mecha's not gonna be able to do more than the basics and thus won't benefit from his close combat skills anyway. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 6:32:40 GMT
You want page numbers in books telling you to Look in Rulebook XYZ?
TMNT Guide to the universe Page 4 to 13
Road Hogs Pg 14 to 16.
Page 14 - 17 Mutants in orbit (infers To use Heroes unlimited or TMNT Guide to the universe)
Phaseworld Pg 151-152 : Abridged Hu2 Space combat rules, with foot notes to look in tmnt guide the universe/Mutants in orbit
Phaseworld SB 1: pg 104-109 Tells us to use the Macross II space combat rules but with the Phase world damage numbers/modifications.
Phaseworld 3 Galaxies: pg 133: Flat out tells us to look at other books for the space combat rules.
What's not included: the Space combat rules from macross II. but those are essentially the same as the ones published in Robotech book 3 : zentraedi. except with differing ranges.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 7:05:40 GMT
you guys are looking stupid looking for things that are plain as day
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 23, 2013 8:36:51 GMT
you guys are looking stupid looking for things that are plain as day insulting posters does your argument more harm than good. your reputation on a board is based upon: The way you treat others. And The level of accuracy in your posts. Yours cannot withstand too many more of these self inflicted wounds. |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 23, 2013 13:21:29 GMT
you guys are looking stupid looking for things that are plain as day Seeing as the only specific thing I asked for was a page number in reference to how Rifts mecha work (something you didn't give me and told that it was inferred, which again does not make it fact)and the fact I have already told you I know where to find the combat rules, I can hardly think I look foolish. Again though you are not answering the actual primary question of the thread. Should Robots, PA and Space Fighter Combat (since Phasewrold added this to the system) be done as their own separate 15 level SKILL tables and be kept distinct from HTH training skills as opposed to adding to them? If not why? My stance is they should be as your HTH Skill is not relevant to piloting your mecha. Your mecha skill would be (piloting etc). Secondary question is whether or not traditional aircraft and vehicle should get their own training (like Robots, PA and space fighters do already and regardless of keeping the training separate from HTH)? I can only assume your answer to the secondary question is no since you seem to think the present combat rules cover this. I disagree as I do not think they cover it well enough since the system already allows the other combat training (Robots/PA/SF) to use their Combat Training Skills in addition to the combat rules we have so aircraft and vehicles should be allowed the option to do so as well. Now can you please address the primary question of this thread instead of evading it with answer about combat rules which hoinestly are irrelevant toe h question being posed. |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 23, 2013 13:24:54 GMT
A - Inferrence doesn't make it fact as each person will or can get a different inference. Also In respect the Robotech section, this was when they still had "thinking Caps" which they no longer do. Also, if you are unwilling to post a page number then don't bring it up. You are making the claim so the onus is on you to provide the source. Eh... I don't think that's actually the "thinking cap" at work. Wasn't that, instead, the so-called "man-machine link" that Carl Macek's post-facto take on what Protoculture actually was/did in play? Either way, not valid, but yeah... I don't think there really need to even be that many skills when it comes to robot operation. Close combat is mostly a matter of "put what limb where", and as such really ought to be covered under basic piloting for a humanoid robot. Most robots aren't really designed to get more inventive than "put fist into face" or "swing sword at X angle" if they're deprived of their close combat weapons... so even if the pilot is a martial arts master, the mecha's not gonna be able to do more than the basics and thus won't benefit from his close combat skills anyway. Well the first part, he is referencing the original Rifts Conversion book and the section on the Robotech RPG to Rifts conversion section thus my statements about the thinking cap. Yeah it;s the "man-machine-link" and was based on the novels in that respect. Oddly enough Palladium used the concept I think as their Telemental Helmet in Heroes Unlimited. As to teh second part....that's one of the reason I want Robots and PA etc to have their own separate 15 level Skill Training set as opposed to just adding on to the HTH Skill set. |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 16:41:10 GMT
Main reason having 15 levels of training : Bad.
1. in war attrition rate of pilots is high
2. No matter how many sorties a pilot makes in (WAR) he's gonna die in combat.
3. The only way for war pilots to survive this long to reach this level of skill is by going non combat, (such as the female airbase transfer pilots during ww2 - They did not practice war maneuvers, but had mastered important skills like night time landing and takeoff).
4. in WW2, the closest thing we had to an ace was a Biplane WWI ace who generally taught simple tactics to the RAF, and due to medical procedure, was able to endure higher Gs then a normal pilot because he had no legs. This guy was able to turn idiots into useful ones within weeks.
now as for Occ's that should have a superior combat fighting system (but for some reason, do not) include the Glitterboy.. but the glitterboy does not need to dodge opponents to win.. so it fails on this regard. the SAMAS might have use for a Superior martial art, same with the samson, as both designs are hundreds of years old.
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Post by yilbber on Dec 23, 2013 16:46:39 GMT
you guys are looking stupid looking for things that are plain as day insulting posters does your argument more harm than good. your reputation on a board is based upon: The way you treat others. And The level of accuracy in your posts. Yours cannot withstand too many more of these self inflicted wounds. is it my fault you begin with a faulty premise (that Rifts has vehicle combat behave the same as hand to hand, when i proved otherwise) As for the discussions on the control interfaces, these appeared in early rifters, early FAQs, and in various tucked away sections on various mecha. Rifts Generally just gives less agile mecha lower bonuses, and bigger , faster, ones , more bonuses. As for example " in Cb 1: they mention other powers being able to make transformable mecha, and they go reasons as to why not.... (of course, jump to phase world, we have our first Transformable starship) |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 23, 2013 17:32:46 GMT
Main reason having 15 levels of training : Bad. 1. in war attrition rate of pilots is high 2. No matter how many sorties a pilot makes in (WAR) he's gonna die in combat. 3. The only way for war pilots to survive this long to reach this level of skill is by going non combat, (such as the female airbase transfer pilots during ww2 - They did not practice war maneuvers, but had mastered important skills like night time landing and takeoff). 4. in WW2, the closest thing we had to an ace was a Biplane WWI ace who generally taught simple tactics to the RAF, and due to medical procedure, was able to endure higher Gs then a normal pilot because he had no legs. This guy was able to turn idiots into useful ones within weeks. now as for Occ's that should have a superior combat fighting system (but for some reason, do not) include the Glitterboy.. but the glitterboy does not need to dodge opponents to win.. so it fails on this regard. the SAMAS might have use for a Superior martial art, same with the samson, as both designs are hundreds of years old. Considering the Combat Skill Training would take place in conjunction with training them to pilot said vehicles in the first place, the above points are pretty much invalid or not applicable. We aren't talking about WW2 where the planes were nothing more than cars with wings (and the engines worked along the same premise as car engines since they were internal combustion piston driven engines by and large). As for aces, there are several stories of WW2 pilots who went out on sorites and came back as aces after their first one. Ace was defined by a number of kills not level. Furthermore, today's fighter pilots I guarantee are trained for combat IN the planes separately from any HTH training they may receive and as such the two are not inclusive but exclusive of the other. Saying "The only way for war pilots to survive this long to reach this level of skill is by going non combat," is just as applicable to the HTH training and any other "skill" that relates to combat such as WPs too. Should none of these be level based either? |
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