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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 17:56:22 GMT
you do know half of his sources have recanted publicly; right? bill coffins recante was more on how he handled his anger. He also; in the same recant; admits that issue isnt as one sided as his original posts paint (funny how every one over looks that in their zeal to paint Kevin as the devil incarnate.) |
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 14, 2013 17:58:59 GMT
The sad part is, at least from the outside looking it, those accounts seem to hold more weight than many defenders would like to admit as well though.
Not you but you know the types I am talking about.
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Post by Josh Hilden on Dec 14, 2013 19:21:32 GMT
Bill recanted ZERO percentage of the details. All he did was apologize for how he handled his anger. Frankly his blow up is one of the reasons I didn't fucking lose it publicly. 98% of what I wanted to say had already been said.
But Damian really does have a decent handle on how Kevin tends to view things, or at least up until the end of 2008.
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 14, 2013 19:24:19 GMT
And the stories of the statements being recanted aren't as widely known. Reminds me of when the news paper that prints a front page story that is shown to be wrong later. they print the correction on page 47, behind the obituary section.... people rarely read deeper than the head lines. I deal with it everyday on political blogs.
On the other hand thou bBill and Kevin have moved past a 13 year old incident.. it still happened.
Much like people forget Kevin's reputation is made by his actions. Like suing everyone he can. Bullying a tiny rpg company in the early 90s, that lead to the "card craze" fad.
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Post by kryptt on Dec 14, 2013 19:39:38 GMT
It still doesn't invalidate what the rest of the article says. It seems like Ross's complaints come from a genuine desire to help PB and not bring it down which is where I stand as well. I may be critical of PB, but it's because I want positive things for them and us the fans. I think some here may be operating under a false impression that I'm trolling or just a hater. Like many on the web I feel that a little tough love and a reality check would do the company a world of good. In fact since update 116 for RRT there have been positive changes. The great part is that Wayne is participating with us on the ks forum. If not for so many of us being vocal over at kickstarter then things would probably still continue with the "gee wiz you'll love RRT because it's superduper awesome" bullshit. Even the latest murmur with some of the wording is beginning to reflect the positive change. So a little criticism can go a long way in bringing about positive change which I'm now seeing. If you go to the RRT ks the comments are going from negative to more positive comments.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:25:13 GMT
It still doesn't invalidate what the rest of the article says. It seems like Ross's complaints come from a genuine desire to help PB and not bring it down which is where I stand as well. I may be critical of PB, but it's because I want positive things for them and us the fans. I think some here may be operating under a false impression that I'm trolling or just a hater. Like many on the web I feel that a little tough love and a reality check would do the company a world of good. In fact since update 116 for RRT there have been positive changes. The great part is that Wayne is participating with us on the ks forum. If not for so many of us being vocal over at kickstarter then things would probably still continue with the "gee wiz you'll love RRT because it's superduper awesome" bullshit. Even the latest murmur with some of the wording is beginning to reflect the positive change. So a little criticism can go a long way in bringing about positive change which I'm now seeing. If you go to the RRT ks the comments are going from negative to more positive comments. yeah it can go quite a ways... when its done respectfully. thats the problem however. a large proportion of the critics are not leveling the criticisms respectfully. is it any wonder they are being dismissed out of hand? |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:37:08 GMT
And the stories of the statements being recanted aren't as widely known. Reminds me of when the news paper that prints a front page story that is shown to be wrong later. they print the correction on page 47, behind the obituary section.... people rarely read deeper than the head lines. I deal with it everyday on political blogs. On the other hand thou bBill and Kevin have moved past a 13 year old incident.. it still happened. Much like people forget Kevin's reputation is made by his actions. Like suing everyone he can. Bullying a tiny rpg company in the early 90s, that lead to the "card craze" fad. When that "bullying" happened I had the opportunity to hear from both sides on the issue. The only reason the small company got into legal issues with Pally was because they did the conversions without permission. Kevin has said on numerous occasions had they just contacted him and asked for permission he would have given it. On his "suing" everyone under the sun... read up on the difference between a C&D letter and a court ordered C&D. Also read up on the CW law in the US. Either you defend against ALL infractions or lose your protection under the law. Sony once had to sue a mom & pop dry cleaner because the owner used his given legal surname as the name of his business (Sony Dry Cleaning). US CW law is far from perfect and actually forces companies to behave like assholes where their CW and TMs are concerned. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 20:48:48 GMT
Damian, the "YOU GO AFTER EVERY LITTLE THING OR YOU LOSE ALL PROTECTION" is bs. D&D didn't behave the way Kevin did. White wolf didn't. One of the other game companies went after their own fans the way he did. None of them.
Sorry but "We have to be pricks least someone get up on us" is not borne out by the rest of the industry not behaving in similar fashion. You don't see Shadowrun going to lawyers and sending out letters to people with websites. You don't see Pathfinder doing it.
That's what cha call a 'Dodge' and trying to hide your Douchebaggery behind legal crap. If every game company did the same exact thing, it'd be one thing, but none of the others did.
Heck the thing with the video game company over 'Rift' is widely seen as a nuisance lawsuit, that Palladium went into for the express reason of making a buck. Know what? Rift is still called Rift and Palladium 'settled' out of court. Suddenly books started being reprinted and the 'pressure' was gone for a while there. The huge game company found it easier to just pay um off instead of having to go to court repeatedly and deal with it. We don't know how much Palladium was paid off, but the Video game changed not one iota, and Palladium went immediately silent and forever more on it.
You can put two and two together there man.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:53:10 GMT
Damian, the "YOU GO AFTER EVERY LITTLE THING OR YOU LOSE ALL PROTECTION" is bs. D&D didn't behave the way Kevin did. White wolf didn't. One of the other game companies went after their own fans the way he did. None of them. Sorry but "We have to be pricks least someone get up on us" is not borne out by the rest of the industry not behaving in similar fashion. You don't see Shadowrun going to lawyers and sending out letters to people with websites. You don't see Pathfinder doing it. That's what cha call a 'Dodge' and trying to hide your Douchebaggery behind legal crap. If every game company did the same exact thing, it'd be one thing, but none of the others did. Heck the thing with the video game company over 'Rift' is widely seen as a nuisance lawsuit, that Palladium went into for the express reason of making a buck. Know what? Rift is still called Rift and Palladium 'settled' out of court. Suddenly books started being reprinted and the 'pressure' was gone for a while there. The huge game company found it easier to just pay um off instead of having to go to court repeatedly and deal with it. We don't know how much Palladium was paid off, but the Video game changed not one iota, and Palladium went immediately silent and forever more on it. You can put two and two together there man. Just because the rest of the industry doesnt do it does not mean its bs. And you are wrong about the others not doing it. They do it too you just dont see the reactions you do with pally. Read the damn law. I have. It's defend against ALL or none. When you discover an infraction you must take steps or lose the rights. Its fucked up I agree. But thats how the stupid thing is written. |
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 14, 2013 20:53:31 GMT
I well understand cw law and c&d's. Kevin sued trion for using a dictionary word. It reminds me of tsr trying to cw the words paladin and ranger at one point... Rift: planes of telara didn't make me think of rifts. Thou the name they went with was a huge Fuck you...
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 14, 2013 20:57:26 GMT
Damian, the "YOU GO AFTER EVERY LITTLE THING OR YOU LOSE ALL PROTECTION" is bs. D&D didn't behave the way Kevin did. White wolf didn't. One of the other game companies went after their own fans the way he did. None of them. Sorry but "We have to be pricks least someone get up on us" is not borne out by the rest of the industry not behaving in similar fashion. You don't see Shadowrun going to lawyers and sending out letters to people with websites. You don't see Pathfinder doing it. That's what cha call a 'Dodge' and trying to hide your Douchebaggery behind legal crap. If every game company did the same exact thing, it'd be one thing, but none of the others did. Heck the thing with the video game company over 'Rift' is widely seen as a nuisance lawsuit, that Palladium went into for the express reason of making a buck. Know what? Rift is still called Rift and Palladium 'settled' out of court. Suddenly books started being reprinted and the 'pressure' was gone for a while there. The huge game company found it easier to just pay um off instead of having to go to court repeatedly and deal with it. We don't know how much Palladium was paid off, but the Video game changed not one iota, and Palladium went immediately silent and forever more on it. You can put two and two together there man. Just because the rest of the industry doesnt do it does not mean its bs. And you are wrong about the others not doing it. They do it too you just dont see the reactions you do with pally. Read the damn law. I have. It's defend against ALL or none. When you discover an infraction you must take steps or lose the rights. Its fucked up I agree. But thats how the stupid thing is written. LOL Ok Damian. So all the other companies do it, but only the Palladium fans complain. Just them. So all the others are doing the same thing, yet noone knows about it (Except seemingly you) Right. Do you even hear yourself at this point? There's loving a company and there's just total blind allegiance up to making up things to defend them. |
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 14, 2013 20:58:15 GMT
strangely though if Kevin's douchebaggery had not lead to Palladium suing trion. I doubt I would have ever heard of Rift until well after it was on the market thanks to all the bullshit on the forums I learned of probably my favorite Fantasy MM.... rift with its 500,000 active patron memberships is a fan base we wish palladium had.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 20:59:05 GMT
I well understand cw law and c&d's. Kevin sued trion for using a dictionary word. It reminds me of tsr trying to cw the words paladin and ranger at one point... Rift: planes of telara didn't make me think of rifts. Thou the name they went with was a huge Fuck you... I read up on the initial long term design for the mmo during that lawsuit... the name Rift wasnt the only similarity. |
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 14, 2013 21:00:52 GMT
Actually scifi. .... if other companies used Kevin's exact same tactic in defending their intellectual property rights the rabid defenders of Kevin would probably go nuts accusing them of all kinds of evil things. Truth is Kevin's company is just unsuccessful enough to be considered an underdog therefore its okay for him to sue but it would never ever be okay for a company like wizards to sue now that they are successful. The most interesting note is Kevin is the main reason why wizards is a successful company. His suit made them get into the magic fad....
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 14, 2013 21:08:09 GMT
I well understand cw law and c&d's. Kevin sued trion for using a dictionary word. It reminds me of tsr trying to cw the words paladin and ranger at one point... Rift: planes of telara didn't make me think of rifts. Thou the name they went with was a huge Fuck you... I read up on the initial long term design for the mmo during that lawsuit... the name Rift wasnt the only similarity. I have read it all. Kevin was out of line. And trion picked a name closer to rifts than the original name... Trion has even removed the disclaimer from their website that mentions palladium at all. |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 14, 2013 21:08:51 GMT
Just because the rest of the industry doesnt do it does not mean its bs. And you are wrong about the others not doing it. They do it too you just dont see the reactions you do with pally. Read the damn law. I have. It's defend against ALL or none. When you discover an infraction you must take steps or lose the rights. Its fucked up I agree. But thats how the stupid thing is written. LOL Ok Damian. So all the other companies do it, but only the Palladium fans complain. Just them. So all the others are doing the same thing, yet noone knows about it (Except seemingly you) Right. Do you even hear yourself at this point? There's loving a company and there's just total blind allegiance up to making up things to defend them. The difference is in how the lawyers word the damn things. Pallys letter comes off as rude and threatening. (Stop now or we sue) The Other companies have better lawyers who make it clear that its a politely worded request that if ignored may result in litigation. (please stop or we may have to initiate legal actions). |
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 14, 2013 21:58:44 GMT
Both of you guys are right, you know that?
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 14, 2013 21:59:41 GMT
Bill recanted ZERO percentage of the details. All he did was apologize for how he handled his anger. Frankly his blow up is one of the reasons I didn't fucking lose it publicly. 98% of what I wanted to say had already been said. But Damian really does have a decent handle on how Kevin tends to view things, or at least up until the end of 2008. thanks Josh |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 14, 2013 22:47:07 GMT
LOL Ok Damian. So all the other companies do it, but only the Palladium fans complain. Just them. So all the others are doing the same thing, yet noone knows about it (Except seemingly you) Right. Do you even hear yourself at this point? There's loving a company and there's just total blind allegiance up to making up things to defend them. The difference is in how the lawyers word the damn things. Pallys letter comes off as rude and threatening. (Stop now or we sue) The Other companies have better lawyers who make it clear that its a politely worded request that if ignored may result in litigation. (please stop or we may have to initiate legal actions). Eh... speaking from experience, since both my 9-to-5 and my Macross hobby have left me examining (and, in the former, participating in) legal actions over the ownership and disposition of intellectual property, it's pretty freaking hard to word a Cease-and-Desist in any way that DOESN'T make you sound like your aim's purely to be the biggest jackass you can. Even if you manage to tidy it up real nice, there's no getting around the fact that a Cease-and-Desist letter IS, in a nutshell, a threat. "Stop now, or we'll sue your ass" is the Sparknotes version of EVERY Cease-and-Desist notice. When the lawyers use "may result in further legal action", they really mean " will result in further legal action"... they're just phrasing it in a nicer way on the generally-sound assumption that taking the time to sound like you're not already prepared to tar and feather them makes you sound more reasonable, and therefore that they'll be willing to either comply or try and find some kind of middle-ground accommodation. damian is pretty much correct that, when it comes to infringements of intellectual property, it's a choice between taking action now or losing your right to go complaining about it later. This does, inevitably, lead to companies wasting a lot of time and money suing each other over even relatively generic terms if one group or the other attaches that term to some distinctive product. In most cases, it IS pointless and a stupendous waste of time, money, and effort, but the prevailing school of thought is "better safe than sorry". Even if it gets thrown out because your claim is too vague, or the term you're suing over too general, there's still the ability to show the courts you're actively protecting your IP later on if you run into an actual violation by someone else. As far as whether or not "respectful" criticism helps... that largely depends on the individual being criticized. Some companies accept it with good grace, while others (like Palladium's long-time partner Harmony Gold USA) take any insinuation that they're anything less than absolutely perfect in every way as being quite the same as telling the author you f*cked his mother. Palladium... seems to go back and forth between those two. If you're telling them minor things went a little awry, they're ok... but tell them there's something seriously wrong with how they interact with their customers or that they need to update their business model to be more competitive in the modern industry, and they'll run your ass out of town for it. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 15, 2013 5:51:55 GMT
And yet, the other companies in the field don't have histories like Palladiums of doing as Palladium has done or attacking their fans in that fashion. You hear about it now and again. Few and far between. Palladium actually has a rep for it and it's on their wiki page and what not.
If all companies do it. Why is Palladium the one known for it and not the others?
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 15, 2013 6:34:39 GMT
Speaking if Wikipedia. I remember someone posing as the head moderator for Palladium forums was vandalizing peoples Wikipedia pages of course being this person was acting as the head moderator many people on Wikipedia assumed it was Kevi. Himself. This was about the time Kevin sued trion and the page was being edited ti reflect the new lawsuit.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 15, 2013 6:40:02 GMT
I don't think Kevin knows what Wikipedia IS, let alone how to edit it. He's a technophobe
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colonel wolfe
Junior Member
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 15, 2013 7:00:04 GMT
I don't think Kevin knows what Wikipedia IS, let alone how to edit it. He's a technophobe we know this. But to the common mmo player or Wikipedia user Kevin is just a name... and when a person posing as nmi is attacking people online... they think the head mod is Kevin... it's not . Bad assumption that a owner of a tiny company might be the head mod of the company forums too. |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 15, 2013 7:00:38 GMT
And yet, the other companies in the field don't have histories like Palladiums of doing as Palladium has done or attacking their fans in that fashion. You hear about it now and again. Few and far between. Palladium actually has a rep for it and it's on their wiki page and what not. If all companies do it. Why is Palladium the one known for it and not the others? Some of it, I'm sure, is because Palladium is a basically a mom & pop shop. Kevin is the owner, head editor, and pretty much every other senior authority figure, so he has nobody around him with authority enough to tell him that doing something is a massively bad idea or force him to revise or discontinue bad practices. He also doesn't have someone to manage his customer relations... and therefore nobody to keep him from periodically acting like a bellend in front of everyone. Palladium also doesn't appear to have decent legal counsel on any kind of retainer, so they probably waste a lot of time on that front in seeking out lawyers or sending form letter cease and desists using those web-order document houses the way HG does. That probably leads (just like in HG's case) to a lot of frivolous and damaging wastes of time. Larger companies "have a guy for that" for all that stuff... so they put forth a better public image (sometimes). |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 15, 2013 7:14:32 GMT
Palladium also doesn't appear to have decent legal counsel on any kind of retainer, so they probably waste a lot of time on that front in seeking out lawyers or sending form letter cease and desists using those web-order document houses the way HG does. That probably leads (just like in HG's case) to a lot of frivolous and damaging wastes of time. The last I checked, this www.jaffelaw.com/en/people/LawrenceJordan.aspx was Kevin's legal guy. |
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 15, 2013 7:19:56 GMT
I shouldn't be hard to look up who is legal council is... he's only sued like 50 people... Kevin v. Trion should list his lawyers
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 15, 2013 7:25:43 GMT
I shouldn't be hard to look up who is legal council is... he's only sued like 50 people... Kevin v. Trion should list his lawyers I'm vaguely curious about that one... d'you happen to know where the suit was filed? |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 15, 2013 7:27:47 GMT
Plaintiff Counsel: Peter M. Falkenstein of Jaffe Raitt Heuer & Weiss PC
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 15, 2013 7:29:49 GMT
RFC Case Number: T-P10-11859T
Court Case Number: 2:10-cv-11859-JAC-PJK
File Date: Friday, May 07, 2010
Plaintiff: Palladium Books, Incorporated
Plaintiff Counsel: Peter M. Falkenstein of Jaffe Raitt Heuer & Weiss PC
Defendant: Trion Worlds, Inc.
Trion World Network, Inc.
Cause: 15:1114 Trademark Infringement
Court: Michigan Eastern District Court
Judge: District Judge Julian Abele Cook
Referred To: Magistrate Judge Paul J. Komives
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colonel wolfe
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Post by colonel wolfe on Dec 15, 2013 8:05:41 GMT
if I recall the case clearly the judge in Michigan had the case dropped because it was out of his jurisdiction. Trion counter sued Playdium in California Court I think and settled out of court by paying Palladium a measly sum of cash. I wish trion had took the case to the end and won. But theY had alpha testing and beta testing to do. It was easier to Post the disclaimer and settle out of court rather than delay the release... one way to not confuse the 2... rift is out on time... rifts is usually 2 to 3 years late.
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