Optional Rules for long lived beings

[Jaymz]

Guidelines for adding OCCs for long lived races (dragons, demigods, elves etc)

This is largely meant for NPCs

Men at Arms and Adventurer classes

To have the OCC at first level is the equivalent if 20 years

To add additional levels is the equivalent of 10 years per level

This equates to 160 years to master an OCC to 15th level ability


Magic classes

To have the OCC at first level is the equivalent if 50 years

To add additional levels is the equivalent of 20 years per level

This equates to 330 years to master an OCC to 15th level ability

Note - certain magic classes will preclude the character from bring able to have more than one magic class thus restricting them to only being able to choose men at arms or adventurer classes and having only the one magic class. Mystic is one such class and if a magic class other than mystic is chosen first then mystic is no longer available to the character as a choice due to the inherent nature of the class itself.


Psychic classes

These classes cannot be taken in this manner unless it was the characters 1st occupation. If that is the case this the precludes the character from being able to choose any magic classes at all thus restricting them to only men at arms and adventurer classes. Also only ONE psychic class can be chosen in this manner meaning the character will only have one psychic class ever.

This means certain races will never be able to have a psychic class since their first occupation is their race though they may still have psionic powers if their race naturally has them. (Such as dragons). This is due to the inherent nature of psionics and their classes.

All that being said

To have the OCC at first level is the equivalent if 40 years

To add additional levels is the equivalent of 15 years per level

This equates to 250 years to master an OCC to 15th level ability


An example of this in use

Theagar Randil - commander in chief of randils roughnecks, adult ice dragon who has always lived like a human - 15th level dragon, 15th level wizard, 14th level temporal wizard,14th level scholar, 12th level shifter,12th level scientist, 12 level warrior, 10th level wilderness scout, 9th level spacer, 6th level mercenary and master psychic

910 (magic) + 1260 (adventurers) + 400 (dragon) = 2570 years old

An equivalent of 2170 years was spent gaining and increasing the levels of various OCCs by this character leaving 400 years for him to get to 15th level as a dragon as well

[yilbber]

given that Dragons have an insane XP table, I'd probably just use every X amount of years = XP. Having that many Classes makes him have more levels and hit dice then the Old ones. also it's not factoring the dragon sleep they need after reaching adult hood.

[Jaymz]

Unless you are saying they sleep for centuries at a stretch, which nothing indicates they do (they only say they sleep for long stretches, decades maybe) taking over 300 years to master a magic class seems fair to me since a human can master it in their lifetime in less than 100.

This does not give them more hit dice. At all. Just the class.

As for levels.....well the fact that Palladium actually tried to stat out gods just shows how not powerful they made them as opposed to this making a dragon too powerful.

[joshuagoliath]

I don't have a serious problem with this, except that it would need to be retconned onto other beings- like gods. Because, I mean, really, this is more powerful then the dragon-gods.

It makes sense, for NPCs. At the very least, it's a good guideline for "Just how powerful should a <insert long lived race here> really be after 500 years of life?"

[yilbber]

I was probably thinking of Immortals of Sleep from Mystic China, with their sleep,awake cycles, and needing extra Years. as for the sleep. Considering they have hundreds of PPE, The Long sleeps they do is often to recover LOST PPE. Also, since Dragons are dimensional travellers, (Adults) would not spend all that time on earth.

[Jaymz]

They wouldn't need too. They can pick up classes in other dimension. My character example picked his classes in Palladium, Rifts and Phaseworld. Also it depends on the race. My example was very heavily influenced by a human on Palladium as a very young hatchling and carried that influence forward.

[Jaymz]

I agree josh. It would need to be retconned onto gods.

[yilbber]

I think such a system is a tad abuseable. perhaps something akin to the Pu2: human Immortal Category.

[joshuagoliath]

If it's used for NPCs... not exactly abuseable. After all, if the GM wanted to be abusive, he could just say "You're hit by the hammer of God. Jesus saves, everyone else dies".

[Jaymz]

And unless you are playing the PC thru decades of life....no not really abusable.

[yilbber]

No, if the Gm wanted to be abusive he'd tell the group that Umiko (one of the worst players on the internet ever, with extreme Narcisism and (Hello, I'm Female, give me free stuff Syndrome) was playing. That is abuse. why, groups scatter on irc at mention of her!.

[joshuagoliath]

No, abuse is saying that the group faces Pun-Pun.

THAT is abuse. And yes, I did that to a 3.5 group (things had gotten out of hand, and I needed to bring them back to reality. NEVER tell the GM "we can beat anything you throw at us")

[yilbber]

I've seen Pun pun, and killed it with a nuke. Mind you.. It was in a FF/champions/Battlelords crossover....
... Which ended when the overpowered player nuked himself

[joshuagoliath]

Jan 11, 2014 13:12:29 GMT yilbber said:

I've seen Pun pun, and killed it with a nuke. Mind you.. It was in a FF/champions/Battlelords crossover....
... Which ended when the overpowered player nuked himself

Then it wasn't pun-pun. Because one of the very basic rules is that pun-pun cannot be killed.

[yilbber]

Special Abilities

According to the Monster Manual, all Special Attacks and Qualities are either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural abilities. Manipulate Form can grant any of these. As such, Pun-Pun is assumed to have any ability that is beneficial to him or makes him more threatening as an opponent. Here is a list of abilities that he has (the list is nowhere near exhaustive):

All spells and powers as spell-like and psi-like abilities respectively, at-will. These are at an arbitrarily high caster/manifester level. This is because the caster/manifester level defaults to HD with spell-like and psi-like abilities, which Pun-Pun has a limitless amount of.
Multiple actions in each round. This is due to the Quickness ability of the Choker (Monster Manual), as well as the Dual Actions ability of the Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and the Schism psi-like ability (Expanded Psionics Handbook).
All beneficial feats. This is gained from the Chameleon prestige class (Races of Destiny). It has an extraordinary ability to gain a feat, and those feats can qualify for other feats.
An arbitrary amount of Fast Healing by gaining the Epic feat Fast Healing (Epic Level Handbook) a large number of times.
Immunity to weapon damage from the combined abilities of the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and Snowflake Ooze (Monster Manual 3). The abilities are Invulnerability and Split respectively.
Natural Invisibility from the Invisible Stalker (Monster Manual).
Regeneration of at least 40 (the amount of regeneration the Tarrasque has). This means all damage taken by Pun-Pun (if any) is non-lethal, and then his Fast Healing makes it go away.
All Energy Immunities.
Immunity to Polymorph, Petrification, or any other form-altering attack, Energy Drain, Ability Damage/Drain, Mind-Affecting Effects, All Energy Damage, Disease, Poison, Stunning, Sleep, Paralysis, Death Effects, Disintegration, Imprisoning/Banishing effects, Divine Damage, Aging Effects.
Immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level and lower and any spell that allows for Spell Resistance.

There doesn't seem an explanation for how Pun Pun gets his score Past the first big boost, since you can't by the rules benefit from collosal strength boosting modifiers more then once. the faulty Logic they used on Pun pun just doesn't fly, considering if you used Titan's grip and then tried to make magic altered stats permanent, does NOT work. (This whole setup uses munchkin logic to exist)

but assuming he does Manage to Match stats and abilities with various creatures... It's Still possible to kill him.
Anti magic Zones, he's at best a DVR-0 creature, and that means any other god can strip him of him immunities.
Various Planescape spells Affect everything, and The players had access to those things... That and We already had a Superhero mimic in the party that could mimic epic level superheroes... (one of his most dangerous abilities was taking on the mass of 2^128th power tons.. The Surface gravity on his body would Sheer planets apart!) Physics. Kills Munchkins Dead All the time.

[yilbber]

(Note, Yes, that's a Mass Greater then the Sun).

[joshuagoliath]

Wish I was at my comp instead of phone... One of the abilities pun-pun can grant himself is the "I win". Gods can NOT strip him of his powers, simply because of the fact that he grants himself deific powers before they can, ad well as stopping theirs. He also can prevent dead magic zones from existing, ala deific powers. Same with stabilizing wild magic zones.

[yilbber]

no he's using the rules to do that, and therefore, Can not grant himself powers that above DR0. He can give himself epic powers.

here's an example of what's at stake here: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/22235/a-system-ranking-epic-levels-alongside-divine-ranks
DIVINE RANKS AND POWERS

Divine Ranks
Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.

Rank 0: Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability
scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1–5: These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6–10: Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11–15: These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16–20: Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.25

Divine Characteristics
Most deities are creatures of the outsider type (usually with 20 outsider Hit Dice). All deities that are outsiders have all alignment subtypes that correspond with their alignment. Unlike other outsiders, they have no darkvision unless noted in the deity description. Deities’ physical characteristics vary from deity to deity. A deity’s outsider type, along with its class or classes, determines its weapon proficiencies, feats, and skills. Deities have some or all of the following additional qualities, depending on their divine rank.

Levels: Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well. These additional character levels beyond an effective character level of 20th follow the rules for epic levels.
Character levels above 20th confer some, but not all, of the benefits of normal levels. Deities gain all the class features for all their levels. The deity also gains the normal Hit Die for that class, plus additional skill points as if the deity had a level in that class normally. The deity gains an ability bonus every four levels, and a feat every three levels.
Beyond character level 20th, deities’ attack and saving throw bonuses increase at new rates. Deities gain a +1 epic attack bonus at 21st level and every other level thereafter. No deity can have more than four attacks derived strictly from its base attack bonus. Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter.


As for Pun Pun. ... by strict interpretation of the rules on magic, Pun Pun could Not Imitate the powers of something that has more Hit dice then him, nor grant himself bonuses above his level limit. like for example, using his powers to imitate the powers of a living meteorswarm, since his ability only applies to certain categories of creatures.

[yilbber]

At no point did his enhancement bonus change from being inherent from that of enhancement.

[joshuagoliath]

Cannot be killed: terrasque regeneration, pale masters tough as bones, delay death made perm by alter reality,

If somehow it were to get killed anyway, it doesn't stay that way:

Illurien's Rejuvination(Su) + the Ghost's Rejuvenation(Su) + the 3.5 epic destinyEternal Hero's Continual Resurrection ability+ the lich's phylactory madeinto an infinite number of objects bythe epic spell Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery and one ofPun-Pun's infinite mental score modifiers + various crafted contingency spells + Rejuvenation divine salient ability + Zargon'sHorn(Ex) + the Temporal Drake's Recurrence(Ex) (so that if the contingencyspellsfail, there will always be another Pun-Pun there to rezthe first immediatelyinstead ofhaving to waitlike the other abilities). Encore(Ex) also provides a foolproofway to return from sinceit makes so the onlyway to beatPun-pun would be to roll higher thatit on three knowledge or perform checksor to fulfill Pun-pun's"last wishes", however it has the down side of making it "fueled by anger and bitterness" so itshould likely onlybe used as a last resortand onlyon a powerlessbody.

[yilbber]

the real problem is Pun Pun assumes one uses 3.0 magic rules where there were no limitations on magic vs 3.5 where everything is strictly limited. there are no infinite loops. and really, the whole thing depends on him meeting a suarrehk demon.

See Pun pun can not logically exist : www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79725
you have to cheat the rules to make it so that it does.


Among the many cheats performed to make Pun pun:
A Serrakh (or Surrogate) can not Grant itself abilities it does not have. It can not Increase other's abilities score beyond it's OWN NOT AUGMENTED AKA NORMAL Maximum.
Serrakhs are immune to manipulate form.  - the Pun pun has somehow copied the serrakh's power onto itself. Making it unable to benefit from further manipulate forms. Passing it on to his familliar makes it Immune to further manipulations! Furthermore, Once It's Fort Save is easily able to beat fort 22 He/she is UNAFFECTED by manipulate form. It also only Grants rather limited changes, but can grant any Extraordinary, spell like or supernatural abllity, ONLY to Reptillian creatures. Once you become extraplanar, Aberration ,Celestial, Abyssal,Undead, or Construct  - etc you are no longer a valid target of the ability.


Master of many forms at lvl 3 has a limitation of Monsterous humanoids. no gaining abiltieis from other creatures with more hit dice then you do. It also only Grants rather limited changes, but can grant any Extraordinary, spell like or supernatural abllity, ONLY to Reptillian creatures. Once you become extraplanar, Aberration etc you are no longer a valid target of the ability.
.. the bellflower tatoo was used in Pun Pun to temporarily boost an attribute by Charisma which only lasts 1 round per level. ... each use of manipulate form knocks a person out for 2d4 rounds. that means the bellflower tatoo boost is gonna be over before he gets to manipulate his form with it.
knocking out a person Ends temporary enchantments. ...