Dying on the hill that is Kevin's shitty writing

[hawkwind]

Fine. Clearly my reading comprehension disability has kicked in. I've tried to be very deliberate. If that didn't happen then it's from that.

Honestly. I'm pissed because you came off as being critical with no alternates. If that's not the case then the it's my disability.

It's why I post on short notes. I can't wrap my head around long posts

[Adam of The Old Kingdom]

clarity, a "smart phone" gives a -50% modifier.

[hawkwind]

The art work was sub par, I haven't done comic in 10 years. I'm partly doing this to have something to draw.


Granted I'm the hardest on myself. The first was good. The uniform needed flash to it.

[hawkwind]

So question.

Assuming New Navy material in book as the default for this question.

Why assume engineers and scientist don't exist? The material says 1. Base personnel where saved, so more then the sub personnel exists. That eliminates the argument that no scientists/engineers exist because only sub personnel survived. 2. The auto factory would require highly skilled engineers to run and maintain. As we see with current automation, you end up getting rid of low skilled people and replacing them with high skill technical workers. An auto factory would require high level engineers to maintain it. If the Navy saved base personnel then that includes people like those engineers. 3. We also know the bases are top secret, why assume other project requiring even more high skilled personnel would not also be present?

This change in assumptions from the material is easily possible and counters the argument that the New Navy would have no knowledge base to start from.

I feel that assuming no engineers/scientists exist is simply justification to make the material work. If that's what he wanted, why not just say that? Even the Republican's innovated.

[Sci-Fi]

Addressing this directly.

We don't assume no engineers or scientists exist. I'm sure some do. The problem arises in that they very likely didn't have the 'right kind' of engineers or scientists.
1: Base personnel were saved. That doesn't automatically equate to high level designers or inventors of super super beyond golden age technology. Did they have people on Base that could repair the tech they had? Sure, Very likely. Repairing something already built, is radically different from inventing something new.

Look at it this way Hawk. The guy at Walmart's auto center can repair your car. But can he design a hovercar? No. He couldn't. He could put oil in your car. Change the belts, maybe repair a window, install a radio, but that same guy isn't designing new cars. Much less designing something that the world has never truely seen.

Same exact situation. The mechanics and engineers at the bases could very likely repair and maintain the stuff they -had-, but they were not able to suddenly invent something so far beyond what they had, that it would be like that guy at Walmart suddenly developing and building a Hovor car.

2: Auto factory requiring skilled engineers to run and maintain... ehhhhh. Kinda sorta. They are skilled in that they know their part of the factory and how to put their parts on the cars. But that doesn't mean, again, that they're skilled beyond their one part of the factory. Most factory positions don't require higher education. You go, you're taught.... how to put the dash in the car. And that's what you do all day long. Put 500 dashes in the car. That doesn't mean you can suddenly design and develop the flight controlls for a hover car. You just know how to put in the dash. The guys that maintain the automation, the robots and stuff. Maintain those robots. Not all robots in creation. They can fix a mechanical arm of a certain kind of robot, but they're not developing power armor. Again, you're "Maintaining current tech" Not "Developing and enhancing and going beyond modern tech" Those are different guys. Different skill sets.

3: Top secret doesn't mean what alot of people think it means. Top secret bases to resupply a sub were very likely just 'top secret' so they didn't get blown up. You're assuming there's all sorts of black budget, off the books high tech weapons design and manufacture there. In reality they were likely alot more like hidden supply depos with a skeleton crew that sat around at the bottom of the ocean bitching that they didn't get to go on the super sub which would be alot more fun. Glorified gas station/and or quick-e-mart.


The types of engineers, and scientists you'd have in the New Navy aren't the same sort that develop power armor and force fields. You'd have engineers that maintained the sub. Could fix it when it got shot up. (Or try to) To keep the engines running. To keep the O2 pure. To see to the mini subs and weapons on ship.

The scientists if any, onboard (Not a given.) Wouldn't be hightech weapons designers. ---If--- there were scientists on board... they'd very likely be marine biologists. Marine specialists. Hydroponics experts. Marine Zoologists. Etc. Not the same ones that... could just think up a force field.

Why would they not be on board? Because they're rare. They're few and far between. The types of super smart people that do that stuff are.. 1 in a million sort of minds. You might have 300 of those guys in the US right now. They work with teams of people under them, but you don't put them on the front lines. Why? What happens if they get shot? Your entire country is out that brain. You keep those sorts safe. Putting them on the front lines would be disasterous. What if they're 'extracted' (I.E. Kidnapped by the other side).

It's not an unfounded assumption.

The unfounded assumption is that those sorts of people, 'would' be on a military sub, with out reason for them to be there.

[hawkwind]

I think your wrong about the factory guys. The point of automation is to remove peons. An auto factory simply puts prefabbed parts together. This factory build everything from scratch. A highly educated engineer would be required to keep a process that complicated running. It's not really just maintaining. You would need a high level of electronic and mechanical engineering to manage this level of tech.

Part of the problem is we don't know what "automated" means. Is it auto factory automated and hundreds of people are part of the assembly process and would not need educated. Or is it insanely automated and basically 12 guys run the place. That level of automation requires hundreds if cross skills and a lot of engineering to be able to go from repairing the circuit printers to fixing the conveyor belts. They would need management training to handle that sophisticated an operation.

Now I'm not saying they started to engineer new stuff but it's easily an engineering base to have scientists generations later.

While Triax had more I'm not saying they are equal in everything. But technology doesn't always follow a direct course. There are many factors to why one tech gets developed over another.

So when I suggested force fields (if it makes you feel better it was one of three or four I came up with for haul breaches.) I see no reason that the new navy could not have them. Kevin has not created a specific tech higherarchy for when a society developed x tech. Since the new navy has no cybernetics, or biology, they have lots of manpower to devote to something like force fields.

My moan complaint is you make it sound like I'm being absurd and that's just unfounded. There is no set A, B, to C and them Force Fields.

Primarily that is the big thing that led to my argument. It's not as simple as a, b, c. And starting at the golden age level tech, there is plenty to reverse engineer to get caught up to someone like Triax.

Side note. The Coalition had a period where magic was a huge part of society. Which would stunt tech growth, and is why the started over at golden age. But in a matter of 10 years the reinvented their war machine. So when we start talking Centuries, it's hard to wrap the mind around how quickly a society can reach tech break throughs.

Hell, Triax should likely be more advanced.

[Sci-Fi]

No no no, and no. More no and alot more no on top of that.

You're 'assuming' that there's tons of engineers with nothing to back that up. Then based on that assumption you're futher assuming that they had the ability to invent things that the rest of the planet couldn't simply because you want them to have them. It doesn't work that way.

Yes. You have to do the parts in between before you get to the end goal. Yes you have to create the wheel before you build the Tesla Roadster. You can't go "Well Tesla Roader's are neat! And we want the cool car so we'll just skip all the boring stuff in the middle, and we have a guy that can make a wheel. OF COURSE he can make a Tesla roadster.

Traix had an entire nation of millions. It had munitions and weapon factories. It had infrastructure, it had farms and people to make clothes, and people to make sandwiches and everything inbetween. They had miners and stuff to mine things and produce the materials. the New Navy had -Navy Personnel to run the ship- On the base they had Personnel to run the base. They didn't have tens of thousands of miners to get the raw materials to make the stuff they needed. More over who knew how to make it?

Look at your TV. In 100 years could you make one? No. You don't even know how to make the plastic for the case. Or the screen. Much less know how to gather those materials and refine it. Then cast it into the right shape. You don't know how to make all the transisters and chips and circut boards in there. You wouldn't even know how to make the rubbery buttons for the remote, or to make the mute button green and the power button red. Before you can advance you have to have that knowledge base.

An entire nation like the NGR has that. They have that stuff in place. the New Navy had Navy personnel, while trained in how to USE The Navy gear and repair it up to a point, thney don't know how to 'make' it all.

I'm a gun guy. I have a number of firearms. I know how to clean and maintain them. Could I make one? Not in 100 years. I know there's metal and composit in there. I wouldn't even know how to make one spring in there, or how to make the screws correctly to certain tolerance to take the stress that firearms produce. Much less be able to make one from scratch. If given all the parts, could i with unlimited time figure out how to put them together from the 100s of parts? Sure. But to MAKE it? No way.

You're skipping all that and going right to the 'This is cool.. Of Course they'd make it, because it's neat"

You see no reason the new navy could not have them. We've given you the reasons at this point you're just going 'Nu uh!!"

You are being absurd. You're acting like a group of guys manning a submarine can not only invent new hyper tech, but do things that the rest of the planet can't do. Yes there is a set 'A, B, C and then Forcefields' do we know all the details of A B and C? No, but we know that the new Navy isn't there yet.

Traix started with golden age tech too and in 300 years they're just barely starting to experiment with it. Not wide spread.

Your side note is false BTW. There was a period of time when the Coalition had the Vanguard working with them. Not a 'Huge part of society' No it didn't stunt tech growth, because it was never an overwhelming part of their society. It was akin to special forces units. They were there but the CS wasn't a magical society that changed. They were a technological society with some magical elements. That were then exiled when the society got afraid of them.

You're still treating technology like Star Trek. "We're in the future with star ships and phasers and what not and noone's ever created his new bit of tech..... till the ship needs it, then a 16 year old, a blind guy and an android can whip one up in 12 hours. Just in time to save this planet!"

It's great for TV but doesn't work that way.

[Jaymz]

This factory build everything from scratch. A highly educated engineer would be required to keep a process that complicated running. It's not really just maintaining.

Actually that is the very definition of maintenance and repair.....and has ZERO to do with creation of new technology. They are highly trained technicians. not necessarily engineers and scientists.

using you automobile example. Many of the engineers and scientists involved in designing a car cannot actually repair one when it breaks down. I've met and know enough people in all aspects of the auto industry to know that this is exactly how it is. THAT is what you would be faced with by and large not to mention "secret naval bases" are not for research and development, as was pointed out above, and R&D would very much NOT be kept in the hawaiin islands and such but somewhere hidden on mainland USA.

I just do not think the premise works. *shrugs*

[Adam of The Old Kingdom]

ships have "mechanics" and engineers. one does most of the work, the other signs off on it. the mechanics can fabricate any part they need, if they have the equipment, but most ships do not have fabrication facilities, like a base would.
The fitter and turner (machinist) does a 4 year aprenticship specialising in all aspects of ship components. they can be very clever at makinbg stuff work with their hands.
Engineers do 4 years at university, they do math and design and do not spend a lot of time, if any, using tools to know how to make their designs actually come to life. but they do need to know if the work done by the fitter meets the engineering spec for the item.

selling the local auto store guy short cause it's a wall mark store is poor form. they have to know every car that anyone can bring in. they may have been trained to use multiple manufacturers diagnostic equipment and has to work to government standards and customer expectations. and they have 4 years on the job training before certification. and a modern car is often a matter of parts swap out, not because of the mechanics skill, but because of the way engineers designed the car components. modern cars would suck in post apoc and we may end up with alot of what we call old cars being used and jerry rigged because those parts can be hand made.

so in short, engineers are all over the place, but as Jaymz points out, with out a genius or a quality R&D facility, you will mostly see incremental improvements that keep it on par with surface tech, such as the CS and Triax, which is not alow better than golden age until SoT.
and lets not sell engineers short, while they are not like the inventors of the days of yor, they are expected to create and invent in some way as part of their degree. 

[hawkwind]

Are you guys assuming I'm saying the engineers from the fall invented this stuff? I'm saying they are a good basis for maintaining a knowledge base so that 10 generations later they can invent stuff.

A generation is anywhere from 20-25 year. Depending on source. 300 years is 12-15 Generations! So in that time they only know how to maintain current tech?

I think you guys are also still trying to equate current tech to future tech. You can't directly compare automation in factories today to a sci-fi 500 years in the future auto-fac. Especially when we aren't even laying down the basics of what we consider that factory does.

This is important to debate, to show that these future factories require very little knowledge base to run we need to describe what they do. I find the idea that an auto-fac could be run on a continuous basis with out University Level engineers to be silly. Yes someone could turn it on but would they be able to fix problems, switch up production? This isn't automated assembly, which is what our factories are, this is likely processing materials, fabrication, programming, assembly.

Let's take a book example. The Black Market in new west found an auto-fac. I highly doubt they told billy Bob to get the thing up and running. Logic dictates they hired Rogue Scientists and Operators to do it.

So highly skilled engineers easily existed to maintain a knowledge base for people 12-15 generations later.

Other side note. Saying not in 100 years is dangerous. That's 4-5 generations. Your a gun guy, you teach your son everything you know. He adds to your knowledge base on guns (maybe even experimenting with making stuff because stuff breaks down bullets have to be replaced) he teaches his kid. They add to knowledge base. So on. So on. By the time your dead your descendants know more than you.

You have to wrap your head around 300 years. No way do the next generations just shrug shoulders.

Another note. How can you assume no engineers exist? Its a super tech society, look at how many specialist just to maintain heating and cooling exist on a base. We treat air conditioning as a ho him but I can't fix it. And a tech has enough knowledge to be able to practically build one given materials. Now fast forward hundreds of years and imagine the tech level existing on a base and imagine the skills needed to maintain that.

You want to deride this as "this isn't Star Trek" yet it perfectly illustrates the conundrum. This is an advanced enough society that we cannot directly compare modern ideas without also considering the innovations we aren't directly aware of.

Kevin's massive flaw is focusing on the flashy robots without adding any context to the rest of society. We get some windows into this but honestly your trying to argue my assumptions can't be possible despite the fact there is no verbiage that says "no engineers existed". It's all assumption and honestly the level of tech leans a lot more towards having thousands of highly educated people on bases and even on a ship with a 15,000 person crew.

Lastly the New Navy falls completely apart when discussing resources. I don't know where they got the resources to build anything. So your going to try to say that this miracle resources couldn't build anything else?

As for force fields. Using equivalency is not a win in a debate you can't say "they have to be equivalent to Triax". That's not how it works. All those millions if people also develop other tech fields. Remove all the people working in cybernetics, juicer tech, specialist areas like massive ground based tank/bases that don't make sense for an org based in the ocean and you have a lot fewer people working on tech that the new navy could also be working on.

Honestly the only reason we don't consider the new navy to be able to do this stuff is because Kevin wrote a 300 yearold society does nothing more but use only the tech they started with. 300 years later. How can you buy that logic at all? We don't know what they are capable of because we have to justify Kevin's idea to fit his narrative. A narrative that would more easily be down in other ways. He wanted a heroes from the past feel. This is not the way to do it. They aren't heroes from the past they are 12-15 generations descendent of those heroes. He should have done the modern aircraft carrier gets sent to WW2 Pearl Harbor but as a time warp forward. His narrative completely falls apart at every turn. So to argue x exists or doesn't from that narrative is going to fail. To have 300 years an still use only the same tech would likely indicate the New Navy was nearly obliterated and it's society losing 30-40% of its population on several occasions. Especially to claim the low numbers Kevin says the are. (The New Navy is not just the soldiers, but the entire population).

Ignore responses that seem out of order.

[Sci-Fi]

Mar 21, 2015 8:28:34 GMT Adam of The Old Kingdom said:

ships have "mechanics" and engineers. one does most of the work, the other signs off on it. the mechanics can fabricate any part they need, if they have the equipment, but most ships do not have fabrication facilities, like a base would.
The fitter and turner (machinist) does a 4 year aprenticship specialising in all aspects of ship components. they can be very clever at makinbg stuff work with their hands.
Engineers do 4 years at university, they do math and design and do not spend a lot of time, if any, using tools to know how to make their designs actually come to life. but they do need to know if the work done by the fitter meets the engineering spec for the item.

selling the local auto store guy short cause it's a wall mark store is poor form. they have to know every car that anyone can bring in. they may have been trained to use multiple manufacturers diagnostic equipment and has to work to government standards and customer expectations. and they have 4 years on the job training before certification. and a modern car is often a matter of parts swap out, not because of the mechanics skill, but because of the way engineers designed the car components. modern cars would suck in post apoc and we may end up with alot of what we call old cars being used and jerry rigged because those parts can be hand made.

so in short, engineers are all over the place, but as Jaymz points out, with out a genius or a quality R&D facility, you will mostly see incremental improvements that keep it on par with surface tech, such as the CS and Triax, which is not alow better than golden age until SoT.
and lets not sell engineers short, while they are not like the inventors of the days of yor, they are expected to create and invent in some way as part of their degree. 

For the record I'm not selling mechanics short. Walmart or otherwise. I'm pointing out that the guy at walmart (Whom I'm not so sure about four YEARS working at walmart before he's good to go, but I don't KNOW. Just sounds rather non-walmarty to me), isn't going to suddenly design and build a hovorcar. The mechanic at walmart just isn't going to do it. Can't. Even if he wanted to (I mean come on. Hovorcar!!) He just doesn't have the knowledge base to attempt such a thing. Advanced mechanical degrees. design. Theory. Aeroframe knowledge, propulsion, etc. It's just not going to happen. Even if he really is talented at changing your oil.

[Sci-Fi]

Hawk, it's been explained to you at length. You don't get it. You don't understand the process and are making assumptions purely to fit your end goal. At this point it's been explained to you repeatedly and you're still just sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming 'lalalalala'.

It's your home brew stuff. Do whatever you want. Have fun in your game.

Just realize, that it's silly, and if anything, the huge resistance you're meeting online (Online!lol )Should indicate how non viable other players find your concepts.

[hawkwind]

So the idea that later generations can't advance tech is non viable?

The idea you don't have to be exactly like Triax to make similar innovations?

I can't believe your equating Walmart workers to the autofac personnel.

[Sci-Fi]

They can advance tech.

They cannot advance tech in a vacuum, with out proper foundation, or ability.

They cannot advance tech in a vacuum, faster than the rest of the world, with that proper foundation and ability, and drive.

They could do it eventually. They're just not going to do it faster than ultra high tech nations that are dedicate to military technology and have been working on it 24/7/365/300+

To put it bluntly "THEY DON"T HAVE THE PEOPLE OR THE CRAP DO TO IT HAWKWIND! THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT FASTER THAN THOSE THAT DO"

The walmart thing was an analogy. It was to make a point. One you don't seem to be able to grasp. The Tech's in the new navy, can't just suddenly jump forward in technology simply because you want them to. Any more than the guy at walmart could suddenly develop a hovorcar. He doesn't have the knowledge or skill base (Hell noone on the planet does) So he's not going to be able to suddenly do it. Any more than the guys repairing the air conditioning on the super sub could suddenly create a forcefield. It's that sort of radical jump forward.

"Force fields" In Rifts are bleeding edge technology that few on earth have/mastered (Those that do are from alien dimensions and what not)

Why is that? It'd be useful for everyone on the planet to have it, but most don't. Why?

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING HARD.

Because simply wanting it doesn't mean you can do it. Iran really wants a few dozen Nukes. They don't have a few dozen nukes. Even though they want um really bad and there's a handfull of nations out there with them. Doesn't mean that suddenly Iran has a crapton of nukes to throw around.


Your entire argument boils down to 'I want them to have forcefields so they have forceileds. GOD! I said they wanted them, why wouldn't they have them? They want them afterall!"

It's been pointed out repeatedly that it doesn't work that way and that they would not have the ability (yes, even in 300 years) To do it. Why? BECAUSE OTHERS BETTER EQUIPPED, WITH LARGER KNOWLEDGE BASE AND MORE PEOPLE TO BOTH WORK ON IT AND FUND IT AND SUPPLY IT CAN"T DO IT YET!!"

[Jaymz]

Triax is the only actual earth nation on Rifts Earth to have them even in use as a military application and it's, as stated above, bleeding edge tech, used on only a few of their military units.

Now you want to say they managed to reverse engineer some Naruni or rifted in stuff..ok but then you run into the whole "resources, people, facilites" issue. Why? Factories are designed to build things not create new technology. That's what dedicated labs are for. Dedicated to the tech being looked at for development.

As I said above I just do not think the premise works as presented based on what I and others have already said on the matter *shrugs*

[hawkwind]

But we don't know what innovation allowed them to make force fields. Maybe they could build them 50 years ago, they just didn't prioritize it. Your assuming Kevin defined x, y, to z based off his lack of explanation. Because if force fields are such a big deal, they wouldn't have sent the tech to North America. They would be doing what you said, building lighter tanks and robots. He decided Triax sent the tech to America to test. The place with none of their scientists or the people to evaluate the tech in the field. You do that with NGR military.

So we now acknowledge the abundance of plot holes. Such as the fact we don't know how much resources the new navy has. And only the assumption they wouldn't have the drive.

And Iran is stopped from having nukes because of sanctions not lack of knowledge. They are perfectly capable of building a nuke, which is why current talks involve limiting centrifuges. Those are required to process the needed material. Sans US interference Iran would be a nuclear power. (That is not an endorsement that they should have them)

And honestly we don't know the man power the New Navy has. It is stated that a democratic society sits behind the New Navy but he never defines it. What are the tech levels?
Your only argument is you have to have everything Triax has to develop force fields, but your basing that on plot hole riddled story lines. The new navy and it's society are also constantly at war.

I honestly think your statement that my argument is silly only shows your looking at purely the surface of the story line. What was the breakthrough, what preceding the tech? What makes Triax tech superior? We get a great description of how they use a "forward facing" design but they don't seem better. Damage on rifles seems comparable to others. Honestly the first Triax book (compatible to time frame of Underseas) only the Ulti-Max is considered bleeding edge. So for a technological powerhouse Kevin gave them exceedingly little real game difference. Which a huge problem of the system. There is no real classification. So thus the arbitrary "it is written, they are higher tech" is all we have. That isn't good enough for me. I played real systems that actually define this stuff and claiming well a society with an entire book to flesh it out versus a society he doesn't even grace us with a description. We don't even know what "bleeding edge" tech the society is developing.

My problem with your argument is all you've got is, they started with more people. Both had same tech base. I don't buy Auto-Fac personnel are the equivalent as car factory employees or Walmart employees, it take ARCHIE to run the other well known factory.

For elements that define important elements to they game what do we really know about what it takes to run an auto-fac? This is why I dislike Kevin's writing. He never finished a thought or thinks a thought through. He always onto the next thought consistencies be damned.

Let's face it, story wise it's super easy to put the new navy at force field level. Give them their own Desmond, like the CS. If I do it, you'll cry foul. Kevin takes the easy out and goes poof and we accept the huge tech shift that creates.
You want me to say your right and my ideas are silly based solely on limited fleshed out stories. I guess the only real answer is we don't know enough about the full capabilities the new navy had to speculate. In 300 years an Einstein would have been born. Heck the new navy has it's own built in poof machine. The Sea Titans. They are already smarter them everyone else. 5-10 of them could easily make a tech shift to rival Triax.
That's why I don't buy your "defeat" of my argument.

[Sci-Fi]

LOL your first two sentences shows your glaring lack of comprehension over what you are trying to address. "Maybe they just didn't prioritize it". Didn't prioritize a technology that would allow a HUGE GIGANTIC ADVANTAGE In their war with demonic invaders who have their country under siege for years and years and years.

Riiiight. Why would they prioritize a technology that would allow them protection from megadamage, with out the astronomical cost of repairing MD Materials. Little stupid thing like that wouldn't be a priority of the biggest human technological and military producers on the planet. Why would they want to protect their troops that way. Naa, We need a lighter tank. The tank that will need repairs from the attacks it'll suffer, costing tens of thousands of dollars. Vs just having the force field recharge. Right. Why would they POSSIBLY prioritize that technology??

Give me a break man.

*Face palms* You don't notice, that the lack of having those centrifuges, MAKES the point I'm pointing out? The New Navy doesn't have those either. (Or what ever it might be) You're assuming they have unlimited tech, better than the rest of the planet and more resources better than the rest of the planet, etc etc etc. They just don't have it. I.E. They're Iran with out the centrifuges. (Or anything else).

We DO know the manpower the new navy has. Even after 300 years they don't have a million people. All told. That's less than a million people total. Most of those people are not high tech super brains. You need people to grow the food. people to harvest it. people to process it. people to grow the plants for fabric (Or collect the materials to fabricate it) You need people to mine, and gather. You need people that produce all that. You need people to process the food, then you need people to cook the food, to transport it from A to B. You need people to cut your hair and people to write your books and people to produce the toys for the kids that you're having. people to babysit your kids, people to make the clothes for your kids, as they can't run around naked all day. People to make your computers and your coffee cups. People to make everything else under the sun. People to move it all. People to teach your kids. People to gather the news, people to do everything a society needs. Then you have tens of thousands of people in the military whom all have to do military type things, and can't spend time doing for themselves. So they have to be supported by roughly 3 to 7 times their own number.

Bla bla bla bl. So yes, that 'under a million people, even after 300 years' leaves a small number of folks left over to work on hyper advanced super technologies.

The problem isn't that Im looking at the surface. It's that you have utterly no idea what you're talking about on a deep level. You think you're looking deep and you're not even ON the surface. Your ignorance is such a hindrance that you don't even know how much you don't know.

Your talk about traix being roughly the same (Though it is a bit better) tech, re-enforces, AGAIN, what you've been told.

TECHNOLOGICAL PLATEAU!

Once you hit a certain level, it becomes exponentially harder to advance. You go so far up up up then it levels off because the differences in advancement are minimal until you can break through and take it up to the next plateau.

Rifts earth is on that plateau. To go up again they would need to advance to 3 Galaxy level tech. Which isn't THAT much more than they have now.

The fact that you don't 'buy' that automated factory personnel are car factory employees means nothing. You just have no idea what you're trying to talk about. When posed direct questions you ignore them, because they point these things out.

You're just arguing to argue at this point.

Ask yourself this Hawk. "If I'm right, how come noone else agrees with me even a little bit?"

Look at the threads. Noone's been with you on this. Your ideas are flawed, and with out depth or thinking -as pertaining to the setting-.

Yes it's Sci-Fi. It doesn't mean 'anything goes'. You're still constrained by the setting.

Your ideas are silly and need deux ex machina to work. "The hand of god" yes, for them to work you have to invent something that just hands it to them, out side the normal frame work of the world they're in. I.E. Their own unnamed super genesis that some how surpasses 300 years of humanity's best and brightest and nations of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE working the same problem.

[Josh Hilden]

I always saw the New Navy as the RIFTS version of the 53rd Maine in the Lost Regiment series.

[hawkwind]

How in gods name do they not have a million people?!! It has been 12-15 generations. That right there is the clincher for me. Which why we can't begin to compare Triax and the New Navy. You want the new navy to be what it is. I honestly can't even begin to accept the New Navy as described. This prob why we can't have this argument. The entire story line is so full of holes how can you even accept it?

[hawkwind]

And Kevin made Desmond. Do you discount Desmond and remove all bio-experiments from the coalition?

[hawkwind]

Why does no one agree with me?

Except for the person who said give engineers more credit and you have to now say no engineers exist, with no proof for or against.

There is no way to apply rational levels in the setting. There is no symmetry. Take the Glitterboy armor. Even if it is hard to make, explain why NOTHING else uses it. A metal like that would be used on something else besides a Glitterboy. So I have to except your logic based on shitty story telling by Kevin.

As for super genius. I didn't put Sea Titans in. Kevin did. It's Cannon. So it is officially possible for them to advance fields into anything. Cryonics, super magnetics, or force fields. So yes millions of people versus say three dozen Eistiens, Stephen Hawkings, and Tesla's working together. Again I did not creat the sea Titan. Kevin did. And out of 2000 easily 20-50 devote themselves to science.
Without an actual description of how Triax got to force fields, Kevin literally went Poof Triax has force fields. What science went into? What prelim tech existed? Was there a description of how Triax got there? I mean come on, they go from rail guns and robots to force fields? I'm supposed to take that seriously?

Your argument depends upon Kevin explaining how they goto force field. Good luck with that.

Note: you want drive? Let's assume new navy lacks resources. Developing force fields would lesson the strain on resources, something Triax has more of.

[hawkwind]

I'm going to make a side point. I DO NOT ignore questions. I do have a hard time sorting them out of long paragraphs. So if you have a question, it will help me to identify them. Learning disabilities fucking suck and some times I have to make requests to make it easier to understand.

Please call out each question individually so I can sort them.

[Sci-Fi]

Mar 21, 2015 20:58:55 GMT hawkwind said:

How in gods name do they not have a million people?!! It has been 12-15 generations. That right there is the clincher for me. Which why we can't begin to compare Triax and the New Navy. You want the new navy to be what it is. I honestly can't even begin to accept the New Navy as described. This prob why we can't have this argument. The entire story line is so full of holes how can you even accept it?

Points to the book* Because it tells you they don't have a million people. Belive it or not, during that 300 years they did more than lay around and fuck, Hawkwind. They fought for their bloody lives against monsters of every stripe, over and over and over again, and wern't playing out your underwater fantasy porn flick.

Page 108. Population Breakdown. 800,000 total.

Why? Again, because in the military you have alot of stuff to do that's not SCREWING YOUR CREWMATE. Heck right after the rifts opened up they very likely put in commands to prevent reproduction just then as it would be taxing on their medical supplies and take some of their front line troops, off the front line. How many years before they felt stable enough to breed again?

Even then.

Again.

Something we've been telling you from the start.
LIMITED RESOURCES
If you don't have the food to feed people, breeding is a bad idea. If you don't have anywhere to PUT THE DAMN PEOPLE, breeding is a bad idea. If your boat can only substain air for Y amount of people you don't need those people breeding..or you all smother to death.  If you can't feed, or clothe or house the people, you don't make MORE FRIGGING PEOPLE.  Did they have some wriggle room? Sure. They were still operating under martial law with limited resorces. This limits population growth.  It's not like their bases were sprawling underwater facilities with miles and miles of area enclosed in with breathable air where people could spread out. They were only so big and only allowed so much growth. Before they could grow more, those people alive would have to some how expand the base to house more people.
You ignore that. You ignore the ships are only so big. People are not water. They don't fill every cubic inch of the space inside those subs. They have limits of how many people can be on one and the air system still work.

[Sci-Fi]

Mar 21, 2015 21:00:53 GMT hawkwind said:

And Kevin made Desmond. Do you discount Desmond and remove all bio-experiments from the coalition?

You're not Kevin.
You didn't write the book.
You're talking about home brew stuff with out foundation.

Desmond didn't think up the dog boys himself. They found Lone Star with the Dogboys 98% complete and the factory already built, just waiting to be uses. He's smart, but didn't do all that himself. He had effectivly unlimited resources and the brain trust that was discovered when the CS found Lone Star.

Your argument is with out basis.

"Well the New navy COULD have had a super genusis like the CS did"

But they didn't.

Know how we know? because it's not in the book and never mentioned. You're just making stuff up.

Might as well say "Well they could have simply opened a rift and pulled Einstein in to do work for them. It could happen!!"

[Sci-Fi]

Mar 21, 2015 21:13:49 GMT hawkwind said:

Why does no one agree with me?

Except for the person who said give engineers more credit and you have to now say no engineers exist, with no proof for or against.

There is no way to apply rational levels in the setting. There is no symmetry. Take the Glitterboy armor. Even if it is hard to make, explain why NOTHING else uses it. A metal like that would be used on something else besides a Glitterboy. So I have to except your logic based on shitty story telling by Kevin.

As for super genius. I didn't put Sea Titans in. Kevin did. It's Cannon. So it is officially possible for them to advance fields into anything. Cryonics, super magnetics, or force fields. So yes millions of people versus say three dozen Eistiens, Stephen Hawkings, and Tesla's working together. Again I did not creat the sea Titan. Kevin did. And out of 2000 easily 20-50 devote themselves to science.
Without an actual description of how Triax got to force fields, Kevin literally went Poof Triax has force fields. What science went into? What prelim tech existed? Was there a description of how Triax got there? I mean come on, they go from rail guns and robots to force fields? I'm supposed to take that seriously?

Your argument depends upon Kevin explaining how they goto force field. Good luck with that.

Note: you want drive? Let's assume new navy lacks resources. Developing force fields would lesson the strain on resources, something Triax has more of.

We're not talking about the glitter boys. We're talking about the New Navy and the very real reasons that it's not the global superpower above all others that you want it to be.  Your argument is basically "It's not expressly forbidden so it could be there" if it was there we'd have been told. If we're not told, to assume it's there, is nothing but an assumption. You're inventing crap to try and justify your argument.

The Sea Titans wern't made by the New Navy. they were the accidental result of 22 guys stumbling across a Lemurian ley line experiment and it expressly states that they could never replicate it. Trying to say they could make force fields because they made Sea Titans is just an attempt at plain old bullshitting. Nor are SeaTitans some sort of super smart creatures. Their IQ is the same as humans. 3D6. You have the same chance to be retarded and be a sea titan as any normal human.

Again you're trying to justify them having something because you want them to have it. That's already been discounted. They couldn't create it any more than you'd have hopes of creating a TV from scratch.

[Sci-Fi]

Mar 21, 2015 21:22:37 GMT hawkwind said:

I'm going to make a side point. I DO NOT ignore questions. I do have a hard time sorting them out of long paragraphs. So if you have a question, it will help me to identify them. Learning disabilities fucking suck and some times I have to make requests to make it easier to understand.

Please call out each question individually so I can sort them.

It's been pointed out more than once Hawk. I don't know if you have a disability or not but it comes across as a dodge when you wave it around in the middle of a debate. You've been asked dozens of questions. They're the ones with the question marks after them. "?"

All the way back to the point you were saying that the new navy would be able to build what ever they want and I asked you multiple times if you thought our military built their own jets. Or when I asked you if you thought the military itself designed those jets that were later built.

[hawkwind]

It is not a dodge. Why would I lie?

I addressed that. Military scientists and civilian scientists exists. But with the new navy, thanks to Kevin's laziness of differentiating between the democratic society he hints at and the new navy as a military entity of that unnamed entity they are all referred to as the new navy. So your question is moot. When referring to the new navy you inevitably refer to both entities. Military scientists and civilian scientists.

Last. Have a good day. I do not take kindly to your remark they are the ones with ? marks. I will gladly not speak to you any more. Providing you with the reason I missing questions you feel I am dodging and asking that they be readdressed is my way of rectifying the situation.

I'll be sure to tell all the people I worked with to develop strategies for breaking down a paragraph rather then only identifying information on the first and last sentence. I'm sure all this time we just need you to tell us "look for the question marks"

Clearly you felt I was saying one thing and I thought I was saying something different in the last debate which is a clear sign to me I was not reading the debate remarks correctly. This is why informed you. When someone tells me I'm lying or that the information I am presenting isn't the same, it's a huge red flag to me that I got lost in the conversation and am not reading things correctly. If you feel I am dodging then there is no point to continuing. You will not be satisfied with the debate because I will continuously run into issues of trying to keep track of questions and making sure I am answering them.

Thank you. Debate is closed.

[Jaymz]

Hawk - as we have repeatedly tried to explain these scientists A - are NOT on board the ships and B - are highly unlikely to be at the secret bases as that is not what secret bases are for they are for safe haven for the ships themselves. We are not saying to do not exist at all. It is very possible they MAY have a couple that were there for whatever reason. We ARE saying that they would not have enough of them, nor have the proper facilities to do the research, experimentation and development necessary for what you are proposing here, let alone the additional scientific man power and resources to do so. not for quite some time anyway, unlike a nation ala NGR who has Triax and weathered the cataclysm relatively n tact with their infrastructure, resources and brain trusts intact.

Again things as you propose with your explanation just won;t fly as evidenced by the number of people who point out the flaws in your proposal and the lack of support for your ideas.

That';s not a bad thing. Not everything everyone comes up with is "viable" as it were, regardless of how cool it may be.

[Adam of The Old Kingdom]

Mar 21, 2015 15:26:40 GMT Sci-Fi said:

Mar 21, 2015 8:28:34 GMT Adam of The Old Kingdom said:

ships have "mechanics" and engineers. one does most of the work, the other signs off on it. the mechanics can fabricate any part they need, if they have the equipment, but most ships do not have fabrication facilities, like a base would.
The fitter and turner (machinist) does a 4 year aprenticship specialising in all aspects of ship components. they can be very clever at makinbg stuff work with their hands.
Engineers do 4 years at university, they do math and design and do not spend a lot of time, if any, using tools to know how to make their designs actually come to life. but they do need to know if the work done by the fitter meets the engineering spec for the item.

selling the local auto store guy short cause it's a wall mark store is poor form. they have to know every car that anyone can bring in. they may have been trained to use multiple manufacturers diagnostic equipment and has to work to government standards and customer expectations. and they have 4 years on the job training before certification. and a modern car is often a matter of parts swap out, not because of the mechanics skill, but because of the way engineers designed the car components. modern cars would suck in post apoc and we may end up with alot of what we call old cars being used and jerry rigged because those parts can be hand made.

so in short, engineers are all over the place, but as Jaymz points out, with out a genius or a quality R&D facility, you will mostly see incremental improvements that keep it on par with surface tech, such as the CS and Triax, which is not alow better than golden age until SoT.
and lets not sell engineers short, while they are not like the inventors of the days of yor, they are expected to create and invent in some way as part of their degree. 

For the record I'm not selling mechanics short. Walmart or otherwise. I'm pointing out that the guy at walmart (Whom I'm not so sure about four YEARS working at walmart before he's good to go, but I don't KNOW. Just sounds rather non-walmarty to me), isn't going to suddenly design and build a hovorcar. The mechanic at walmart just isn't going to do it. Can't. Even if he wanted to (I mean come on. Hovorcar!!) He just doesn't have the knowledge base to attempt such a thing. Advanced mechanical degrees. design. Theory. Aeroframe knowledge, propulsion, etc. It's just not going to happen. Even if he really is talented at changing your oil.

I was trying to say that we should not sell a "walmart" mechanic short because it's a cookie cutter job.
A trade qualification still requires the right kind of schooling to acheive the certification. even "walmart" will need a qualified person to perform work that affects warranty and if any location has laws against "back yard" mechanics. in a way I thought it unfair to compare a marine fitter machinist to our "walmart" mechanic.
For the discussion, I was trying highlight that short of R&D scientists, most ships do have specialists in making stuff work and building stuff as well as engineers that can design and plan said items. if the tech was the same and the factories/drydocks were available to work on the scale of ships, a rifts navy could do very well for itself.

[Sci-Fi]

Actually that's incorrct. "Most" Ships do 'not' have that sort of personnel on them. Most ships aren't big enough. Do they have engine specialists and mechanics? Yes. Does every ship have Scott, LaForge and Data chilling out in "Engineering"? No.
Would the Supersub have a full engineering compliment, to service and maintain the huge huge huge ships' engines and what not? Sure. But that's not most ships. Just like a 'normal' supercarrier in our fleets would have engineering departments, but a tender ship wouldn't have nearly as many, maybe only having a Chief, and some crewmen assigned to such a thing.

Can the navy tech's make things work with amazing ingenuity? Surely. Is that anything remotely with in spitting distance of advanced superscience research, development and manufacture? No. "Making stuff and building stuff" ... eh. They can follow directions and get things built, as they're taught, but they're not sitting around their quarters scribbeling out hover cars on their notebooks either. It's a total different skillset. Could a Navy tech tear down and rebuild parts of a ships engine? Perhaps. if trained to and experienced. Sure. Are they the ones that designed the engine? Noooooooooooo Are they the ones that built it? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Can they rebuild a carburetor? Sure. A pump or god knows other parts of ships engines? Sure. Are they designing new equipment? No. Are the more over, exceeding designs and inventing 'next generation' stuff? (I.E. a guy in our navy suddenly developing power armor, or hovorcars) No.