Extraordinary, Superhuman, Supernatural....?

[Sci-Fi]

I've brought this up in the past but I'm curious as to people's thoughts here.

For Strength, we have three different levels.

Extraordinary: Minor Ability: Which represents peek human ability. These are your guys that spend all their lives body building but... as far as it goes, not something that a human couldn't do if he/she were totally dedicated. These pretty much are your baseline heroes in the comics, --unless-- they are being shown to be 'weaker' than other heroes. (Some women heroes are shown, not to have it. Some teens. And the occasional guy. Don't hate me. I didn't write the comics. Just making the observation)

Superhuman: Minor Ability: These are the next step up and still technically a minor power. These are the middle hitters of the Comics world. The ones that could throw a car if they need to. Some are even surprising. Spiderman for example can lift a number of tons, but he's skinny and wiry and stuff. Beast, while bigger, is another example. They're far stronger than even the strongest (Baseline) Human. They can do truly impressive feats. Still they're the 'middle ground' when it comes to comics power levels.

Supernatural: Major Ability: These are the "Big boys". The ones that truely rank in. They're hard to qualify because they're SO strong in the comics. We're talking Thor, Hulk, Juggernaut, Colossus (Maybe?), Superman. The problem when you get to this point is that Palladium isn't really set up to adequately show those guys strength levels. Even if you made Thor, The Hulk, Superman, and gave them Supernatural strength. Even if you make them Mega Heroes, their strength in Palladium doesn't even remotely approach their strength's in the books. Anyway.. You get the point, these are the big guys. Akin to gods and that's why they get the title "Supernatural Strength" It's the biggie in HU.

Ok that's my general set up, three tiers of ability.

But the HU books only give this to Strength.

The rest of the attributes are limited to Extraordinary. And here's my question. Do you guys add on/ create other tiers for other attributes?

An easy example is Physical Prowess.  The power lists give us Extraordinary PP. Which, if you look at what it 'Gives' is weaksauce in the extreme.  But assuming that someone with Extraordinary PP has total Olympic caliber gymnast level of dexterity. Ok. That's cool. Alot of super heroes are pretty agile. No doubt.

That doesn't represent others though. For example. Wolverine. Yeah yeah I know if we gave him powers to represent the stuff he has in the books, it'd be like 40 minors and about 15 majors, but that's not the point. The point is, that over the years, he's shown a physical prowess, that exceeds human max.  Extraordinary PP doesn't quite cover him. Beast, his blue furry buddy is another. He shows it even more. Beast is acrobatic. He's been acrobatic from before he even had fur. And Not like "hey that dude with the big feet can cut a flip, yo!" but more than just extraordinary human level. Beast has shown superhuman level dexterity from the start.

Then you get to the pointy end. Heroes who's agility and dexterity dwarf anything that humans could try and do, and even make other superheroes look bad. Spiderman for example would rank far above most other super heroes in this category. Gambit, another one who's agility surpasses even "Super human" Gambit's agility is so high that he's been shown flying through the air upside down, laughing, with his hand over his eyes, shooting a basket ball one handed and making the shot as wolverine hits him. Nick Fury said that he was so good that even Fury himself only knew one or two guys that could fight better. ANd Fury works with the frakin' Avengers. Nightcrawler. His agility is so high that he can sword fight with both hands, both feet and even his tail, and can do so, suspended upside down by any of those 5 appendages. He's so agile and good at it, that he's been asked to join groups of gods in  Asgard.

So clearly there should be other levels of the other attributes.
You see some for PE. Not so much "Super human PE/Supernatural PE" but you see "bullet proof" or AR and what not, but still

Do you guys make 3 tiers for the other attributes. I'm sure you could name heroes that exceed Extraordinary, in IQ. That are just smarter than that. In Mental Endurance? Many of your psionics would have excess levels. MA, PP, PE, Yes even PB (Emma Frost anyone?)

Speed has a number off 'modifiers' as well.

So how do you guys handle someone with... Beast level PP? or Spidy Level PP, or Gambit? Or the other attributes?

[Jaymz]

Well honestly, like the PE side, there are a number of powers now, thanks to the PU books, that are "dexterity/reflex" related though not done like PS is....so not sure if it is really necessary myself. Look at SPD as well, EX and then other forms of "SPD" but not in the same way as PS is done. Of course the way powers are limited in number for HU characters in general... that makes the discussion different.

Perhaps there SHOULD be EX, Super and SuperN levels of all physical attributes, or all attributes for that matter.


In regards to strength specifically...I modified it to have 5 tiers

Normal (and eliminating the "exceptional at 18+ as it was STUPID)

Augmented/Extraordinary

Android/Minor Superhuman

Robotic/Major Superhuman

Supernatural


Most "strong" supers would fall into the extraordinary/minor super/major super PS categories in my opinion with the 100+ ton strength characters being the supernatural ones. Just my opinion though.

I think the biggest issue in HU is not so much the power levels but some of the numbers and the limited number of powers a character can have so unless you address that much of the rest are just talking points and nothing more.

[damianmagecraft]

I have made a few Abortive attempts at expanding the Attributes into the 4 tier (I count normal as a Tier) design.
I typically get stuck on the development of the SN tier versions. And in the case of a couple (IQ and PB most notably) at developing the SH level versions.

[Sci-Fi]

I think supernatural PB would be represented by the Awe factor ability? You're SO beautiful that people are struck by it and have to make a roll to act normal.

As for IQ... that one's not so much tough in mechanics. You could do it with numbers. The problem I have there is that, the people at the table, aren't going to be smart enough to pull it off. I've always been a strong believer in not letting people play TOO much higher than their own IQ. I'd see it in White Wolf games alot. People would make a Son of Ether mage, put INt 5 on the sheet which is genius level, and then they couldn't just pull it off in Role play. Saying stupid stuff and not able to 'act in character' for someone of the int that high. I remember once in a game set in Seattle, a guy came in with an SoE that was all about solar energy. My character also a SoE paused and looked up and then to the guy and goes "You realize it's overcast here 226 days a year. Right?" The player flipped his shit, complaining that my character just made his Int 5 character look like a moron. Everyone else in the scene was laughing their asses off.

Some of us are smart. Some even rate genius by the numbers, but none of us can really accurately portray a 'supernatural level of intelligence'. It'd be like a human trying to explain physics to a snail. No matter how much you dumb it down or speak slowly in small words. The snail just doesn't possess the ability to even grasp it.

[writersblock]

Stats, IMHO, are one of the trickiest things about Pally. They are also one of the hardest to make satisfying changes to because everyone has slightly different perceptions of what they are and mean.

For example, I always felt that Robotic Strength should be tiered some how. Basically, I tried to develop a system where you could buy the raw PS stat but could also buy it up in level (with corresponding increases to lift/carry, damage, etc) since you are really just talking about machinery upgrades...

And, I mean, here's an issue with Pally that came up in game play. For a recent campaign we started, the GM is running a 40's themed, WWII, busting Nazi super weapons and powered villains type game. He made it clear it was going to be epic in scope, so he was being a BIT liberal in the application of rules.

Well, I made a super soldier type, and random rolled for powers. I got Supernatural PS, which I had never rolled before. Cool...not what I would have chose for him but cool...then I rolled another...and then I rolled Supernatural PS again. I said to GM "Guess that is a reroll"...well, GM discussed it and was willing to allow it as a "physics defying comic book stunts" type power...the whole holding a plane up by its nose type of thing....so, I got the PS bonus twice.

My guy has an insane PS over 100. He can carry just under 32 Tons and lift just over 52 Tons.

Now, that is pretty impressive, and has been wickedly fun to play (stuff like him carrying cars and the like) but think about it...

That means to lift some of the tanks of WWII he needs half again that PS...Panzers are a medium tank, and he can lift pretty much the whole series and walk around with it...the heaviest of the Panzers clock in around 30 ton....Panther? Medium Tank and weighs more than 44 tons. Heavy tanks like the Tiger are RIGHT OUT with the Tiger I at 54 Tons and the Tiger II at Almost 70 Tons.

So now we look at comic book heroes, where we OFTEN see stuff like tank lifting and overturning....

Hmm, lemme see here...say 75 Tons...half again my character's Lift capacity and more than enough to deal with most heavy tanks of WWII...

Supernatural PS would have to be.....WOW: 75x2000=150000lbs.....150000 divided by 500 (lift for Supernatural Strength)= 300.

So...Supernatural PS of 300 or so. To add a 50% increase (just over 50 ton lift becomes 75) means my character would have to more than DOUBLE his PS...That does not seem logical....


Other stats are really hard to deal with too.

PB is one I have had to deal with in my games many times. A guy was playing a character with a PB 27 once. He could not figure out why everywhere he went I had NPCs and even some villains gaga over the guy. He had waitresses staring at him, that sort of stuff because he had no secret identity.

I pointed out to him that the best looking person he could think of, in the world today, probably does not have a 24 (human maximum). Supermodels and top beauty actor types range in the 18-20 area. The character was literally better looking that the hottest human that had ever lived.

I have been in, and heard of, campaigns where character having PBs in the 30's and even in the high 40's (which, to me, is a level of beauty we mere mortals cannot even comprehend) and are treated totally the same as everyone else. I often point out that a famous war happened over a girl named Helen who had a PB of around 24 or so.....

Personally, I am a strong advocate of variations on the old D&D Comeliness rules.

IQ is a rough one. When it gets to certain levels, I often argue for adjustments to the education levels as at a certain point a real genius just does not take as long to pick up skills as we more normal people do. I have gone so far as, with a character of IQ 42 in one game, to DOUBLE the education chart roll.

IQ is a hard one though. Basically, you MUST assume (for benefit of the doubt) that the person applies themself and such. But I can't help thinking a insane high IQ should mean more than a skill percentage bonus and some additional skills.


Yeah...pretty much ANY stat is a stone cold bitch to fix.

[damianmagecraft]

Jun 3, 2014 23:24:51 GMT writersblock said:

Stats, IMHO, are one of the trickiest things about Pally. They are also one of the hardest to make satisfying changes to because everyone has slightly different perceptions of what they are and mean.

For example, I always felt that Robotic Strength should be tiered some how. Basically, I tried to develop a system where you could buy the raw PS stat but could also buy it up in level (with corresponding increases to lift/carry, damage, etc) since you are really just talking about machinery upgrades...

And, I mean, here's an issue with Pally that came up in game play. For a recent campaign we started, the GM is running a 40's themed, WWII, busting Nazi super weapons and powered villains type game. He made it clear it was going to be epic in scope, so he was being a BIT liberal in the application of rules.

Well, I made a super soldier type, and random rolled for powers. I got Supernatural PS, which I had never rolled before. Cool...not what I would have chose for him but cool...then I rolled another...and then I rolled Supernatural PS again. I said to GM "Guess that is a reroll"...well, GM discussed it and was willing to allow it as a "physics defying comic book stunts" type power...the whole holding a plane up by its nose type of thing....so, I got the PS bonus twice.

My guy has an insane PS over 100. He can carry just under 32 Tons and lift just over 52 Tons.

Now, that is pretty impressive, and has been wickedly fun to play (stuff like him carrying cars and the like) but think about it...

That means to lift some of the tanks of WWII he needs half again that PS...Panzers are a medium tank, and he can lift pretty much the whole series and walk around with it...the heaviest of the Panzers clock in around 30 ton....Panther? Medium Tank and weighs more than 44 tons. Heavy tanks like the Tiger are RIGHT OUT with the Tiger I at 54 Tons and the Tiger II at Almost 70 Tons.

So now we look at comic book heroes, where we OFTEN see stuff like tank lifting and overturning....

Hmm, lemme see here...say 75 Tons...half again my character's Lift capacity and more than enough to deal with most heavy tanks of WWII...

Supernatural PS would have to be.....WOW: 75x2000=150000lbs.....150000 divided by 500 (lift for Supernatural Strength)= 300.

So...Supernatural PS of 300 or so. To add a 50% increase (just over 50 ton lift becomes 75) means my character would have to more than DOUBLE his PS...That does not seem logical....

When ever this particular subject of the carry/lift capacity comes up; I have to ask...
Just exactly what stories can be told at the 100 ton range that cannot be told in the 25 ton (soft cap in PB) range?
As I (and others) have pointed out in the past...
PB (HU in particular) was never really intended to cope with characters of obscene levels of strength (100 to 1 trillion ton lift capacity).
And systems that are designed to cope with those levels tend to trivialize the lower end of the scale.

[writersblock]

I was more using it as an example that I would need to get the character more than DOUBLE his current PS to see only a 50% gain in his capability with it.