Hypothetical: Siege of Tolkeen

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. So this morning I was randomly thinking about the Siege of Tolkeen series (which I've never read except the Cyber-Knight book because I was playing one at the time). Talk about it on the Unofficial FB page probably got me thinking. Anyways ...

One of the big complaints (other than the oft debated outcome) was that it was so railroaded/laid out there wasn't much affect the players could have and made it a bad adventure. So ...

What if: Palladium released the Siege of Tolkeen series as a novel (one or more) detailing the events instead of a game book? Would you enjoy it more? Less? Like the idea but think it would've sold even worse? Indifferent? Other?

Note: A SoT game book may come out after ("Hey, here's a big toy and NPC book of stuff you read in the novels!").

Clearly the ability to do this has long passed, but I'm just curious. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Sci-Fi]

Well you're not wrong that the player characters very likely wouldn't have changed the outcome, but personally I find that much more realistic than a hand full of PC's deciding the out come of a war with literally millions of combatants, including armies of supernatural demons. As presented you could be a 'part' of the war. Even help out in some of the main points of the war, but you're not gods riding with the Valkyries into battle to settle it in your image or whatever.

I think an accompanying series of novels would have been fine. Look at many of the iterations of the Star Wars RPG. They often have rpg books that correspond to the movies and or novels. New Jedi Order source book, or "Rebellion Era" Sourcebook, Knights of the Old Republic Source book. Etc.

There are a few things I'd have done differently. Not the least of which would be to put out the big book on tolkeen, first or second in the line. Not the Last book in the line, where in the book spent 100+ pages to detail, was sacked in the exact same book you finally (Years later) got the information on it. All the information on the city, all the detail, largely for nothing as it was sacked as soon as you got it. Instead we should have gotten that in the first or second book so it could have been the shining jewel or set piece for the war. I get 'why' they put it at the end. As pointed ouut if we all got the information too soon we might have moved the war on to the city before Kevin was ready, and thus fraked up the flow of the series. Thing is the series was 'meant' to be out in a year. Not multiple years it stretched out over. So.. the 'flow' that was meant was utterly shattered. (The Minion war sound familiar? lol. Same thing. Was supposed to be a year event, many many years ago and we're still waiting on the end.)

I'd have put out the Cyber Knight book as it's own stand alone sourcebook. The way it was released it did 'tie in' to the Tolkeen war, but only periferally. It'd have worked much better as a stand alone book. Thing is, by that point in the SoT run, I think they were already stretching way way further than they'd planned and CK's got tossed in there as a filler book to offset the time between the rest.

Those are two things that I can throw out there with out getting into a pissing match as to which side we favor and which things we think were dumb (Hey both sides had some). I'm sure you're not looking for another rehash of "This side should have done this!" or "That side never hadd that before the war, hand of god!" or "That side would have all died if they tried X tactic. Y book says so!"

[Jaymz]

Eh my only issue is if you actually play it out as per the game rules you're lucky if the war lasts 3 months in game let alone the 3 years we ended up with. The CS winning was no shock. Generally speaking magic can only slow tech down but cannot beat tech in a war like that.

[Sci-Fi]

Well it's not helped by the entire series tells you straight up that Tolkeen had no chance what so ever, from the very start. Even the other magical kingdoms told Tolkeen they had no chance.

That the series lasted as long as it did, was simply to sell more books (Which, hey, they're a book company. I don't sweat them on that.) The "back and forth" thing, sold books.

[Deleted]

 IIRC there were a couple of adventures laid out for PCs during the Tolkeen war, they don't really affect the final outcome of the war but can change small things. One of them was the PCs finding some Behemoth Explorers that had been converted into weapons factorys by Archie.
There was also the one w/ the skull, didn't change the outcome per se but would change teh way King Creed viewed his actions and allowed for the potnetial to affect Jospeh Prosek so he might be more "leniet" in the future.

[writersblock]

I disagree with the whole "small band not affecting the outcome of the war". THAT sort of stuff is EXACTLY what heroic adventuring is supposed to be all about.

How is the Fellowship of the Ring NOT a small band affecting the outcome of the war with their actions?

The actions of a small band is the HEART of EVERY superhero and adventure movie ever made.

Seen The Avengers movie? Well, how would that movie had gone if the "GM" had decided no matter what The Avengers did, up to and including the nuke through the portal, the alien invasion succeeds? No matter how hard the heroes fight or what they do the aliens invade and millions, if not billions, die...How would the players, let alone their characters, feel?

I believe the PCs are the "star hero group" of their own franchise. Their actions SHOULD make a difference in the world.

How many times have we all heard the adage of not letting the NPCs outshine the PCs? Don't let NPCs essentially become the GM PC? Well, IMHO, SoT was a case of Kevin as GM turning the CS into GMPC and putting the PCs in the role of passive observers to the greatness of his PC.

In addition, key points of the SoT (such as Tolkien having a King) did not take into account the Rifts game had been out a long time and people may be using it in their game. I was totally unable to retrofit 80% of the SoT events into my game as, since its start, the PCs have been based out of there and after almost a decade of gaming the one campaign there the city was built in ways contrary to the one in SoT. For one thing, with so many good aligned adventurers passing through, you'd think SOMEONE would have noticed the King is evil...say Sense Evil, Know Alignment, etc etc...

As a novel, SoT would have been mildly better. As a "module type campaign" it blew chunks.

[Sci-Fi]

In short, your little player group aren't the Avengers in conjunction to the SoT. There were literal millions of troops just on the CS side. Tolkeen had 100s of 1000s too. Even a lvl 15 god would realistically be toast if he dropped down and tried to fight off one side or the other.

The Avengers are great, but that 'battle' worked because of the way it was set up. I.E. with out very specific key points that relied on one another to work, the Avengers would have lost. It was a great movie. I loved it too, but the battle would have been over a few minutes later than it was, had the 'bad guys' not shot the nuke at NYC. Hawkeye was out of arrows. Hulk was getting pounded into the ground by 100s of guys. Black Widow was out of bullets. Cap could only fight for so long. Iron man was getting tore up. I mean Fury blew up one of his own jets, and a second one made it out. If not for that... toast. If not for Loki bein' dumb and getting in a fight with his brother, the staff wouldn't have been around to close the portal.

The Avengers 'won' due to some very huge hand of god sort of set pieces. The Tolkeen war didn't have that.

Expecting a group of 5 or so PC's win the war would be like saying a group of 5 or so guys won WWII.

As for the Fellowship.... Well, not really no. Frodo and Sam snuck in the back door and in the end, Frodo went all sith and would have walked out if not for the insane Gollum biting off his finger and falling into the lava. As epic and such as the rest were, at best, the rest of the fellowship bought them time to sneak in. The march on the black gate is for that express purpose. To just draw attention. More over as great as the Lord of the Rings is, it could have been about 5 pages if Gandalf had visited the Eagles beforehand. And just had the ring flown out to Mount doom and dropped in. But that wouldn't have been as epic.

I get what you're saying that the group should be the 'heroes' of your story. I'm saying it's not realistic that a group of 5 or 6 guys are going to settle battles of Millions.
Can they be important? Sure. Can they secure a technology, or magic item that makes a difference in a battle? Sure. Can they gain intelligence that helps turn the tide in one of the battles or the major battle? Sure.

Unless you use some HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE Hand of god, is your group going to 'Win the day' for the entire years long (Should have been months) War of Millions? Of course not.

As for your personal game and what not..... Well..... lol Not trying to sound mean but... Noone cares but YOUR group. That you had built up things differently doesn't affect anyone but you. I ran/played in a game for years based out of Northern Gun. Much of the stuff we built up was different than was in the official books. (Much was the same or close though.) Noone other than my group cares. You don't care a lick that my group's NG was slightly different. You have the books that are Canon now.

Saying that you couldn't use the books because you'd done yours another way, well that's just a personal thing. I hadn't done anything in Tolkeen (Never liked um. Preferred Lazlo) So that major point of contention for you is non existent.

"Putting out the book that detailed Tolkeen" before the last book in the series where it's destroyed, is something for everyone.
"The series had tolkeen different than one guy on the internet had envisioned it" is nothing other than for that one guy.

As for the king... well, he surrounded himself with people that were going the way he was. I mean honestly, how many people get to meet and deal with the president on a daily basis? Pretty smallish number. And those that do, are seldom his enemies. They're people on his team. That think the way he does and help him do what he wants to do.

A king of a magical kingdom is going to be even more insulated and what not. And not for nothing.. Magical kingdom. "Magic" explains everything if you need it to. Is it a cop out? Sometimes. But we are literally talking about the king and supreme dictator of a magical kingdom. One little amulet or something and it covers his 'evil' alignment or whatever.

And the thing is, it's not really like it was a secret. Tarn herself saw he was dangerous and insane. Plato did. All of Tolkeens' allies fled when they saw that Creed had gone apeshit insane. They all told him to run, the CS were going to own his ass. He went all "I CAN DO THIS WITH OUT YOU! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAH!!! YOU WILL ALL RUE THE DAY!!! RUE IT HARD!!!!" ANd they were all like 'Man.. this is gonna suck. That fucktard is gonna get alot of people killed"

Remember, in game, noone's walking around going "I wonder what the king's Alignment is" they're going "Man the king is off his rocker!" or "I'm with King Creed! This city is OURS!"

[writersblock]

What is the PC group supposed to represent in their game, if not the primary band in stories like Avengers, LOTR, etc.

The PC group IS supposed to be the lead heroes in their own tale of adventure akin to those stories.

The entire SoT series was written with the outcome assured and Kev wrote it in such a way as to justify the CS actions by making Tolkien evil. Up to the creation of the SoT books, and the Coalition Campaign stuff, there were no suggestions Tolkien was seen as ruled by evil.

[Sci-Fi]

May 15, 2014 21:05:00 GMT writersblock said:

What is the PC group supposed to represent in their game, if not the primary band in stories like Avengers, LOTR, etc.

Um.. a group of PCs, that you play, that are fun to play, but maybe... don't have world altering powers? I can't speak for other people's games, so I won't, but my games, I've never once played in a group that could take on an army of Millions, and win.

I've never played in a group that could take on hundreds of thousands and win.

Never played in a group that could take on tens of thousands and win.

Never played in a group that could take on simple thousands and win.

Hundreds? All at once... ehh.... not if the enemy is played by someone as smart as me.

Playing a group that can win a war of millions, is not something we see as fun. Not for nothing, if you drop Thor (He's got stats in Pantheons of the Megaverse) himself down infront of a Division of CS. He's toast. He'll take out a few dozen before he's brought down, but he's going down.

May 15, 2014 21:05:00 GMT writersblock said:

The PC group IS supposed to be the lead heroes in their own tale of adventure akin to those stories.

Nope. Not at all. They're supposed to be 'a part of' those adventures in those stories. They're not the great white hope of the people. Too many people involved. Can they have important parts? Sure. Can they have crutial moments? Sure. Can they get a bit of intelligence or something that turns the tide in a battle? Sure.

Are you marching to the front and winning the war? Hell no. Again, you could drop Thor himself down and he's going to be downed by a few 100 CS troops. Pretty quick too.

May 15, 2014 21:05:00 GMT writersblock said:

The entire SoT series was written with the outcome assured

Well yeah. He didn't take a poll. Probably knew where he was going with it, when he started it.

May 15, 2014 21:05:00 GMT writersblock said:

and Kev wrote it in such a way as to justify the CS actions by making Tolkien evil.

That's a little shallow way of looking at it. "Yes and No". The CS Actions 'were' justified, because Tolkeen became evil. And BOY HOWDY Did they. That part is really down played by most people. That being said, it can be argued, that Tolkeen became evil, due to fear of destruction. Thing is, one doesn't 'HAVE' to become evil. One could run. I.E. Relocate, etc. One can maintain one's principals even in the face of evil or certain death. Tolkeen choose not to.

Kevin didn't 'have' to justify anything. It's his lego kit. What he builds with it, is up to him. It's our choice if we wanna buy it from him. Ya know?

May 15, 2014 21:05:00 GMT writersblock said:

Up to the creation of the SoT books, and the Coalition Campaign stuff, there were no suggestions Tolkien was seen as ruled by evil.

It's actually explained in, pretty exhaustive detail in the books. The change of Creed and how he lead the people down to the nadir of evil that they ended up at. It's not even presented as an 'overnight' sort of thing. It took tolkeen years to get from A to Evil.

As for it not being present previous... Tolkeen had not been detailed previously. Previously, they wern't evil. They became evil. Creed went bugshit insane and took the rest of them along for the ride. Good people saw what was happening and either tried to stop it and were killed, or got the fuck out of there when the getting was good. Not for nothing but the CS told tolkeen they were coming for YEARS before they actually came over the hill. Everyone else told Tolkeen to get out of the way. Lazlo told um, "You're going to die if you don't run. Even if all the magic kingdoms teamed up, which we'll never do because we hate each other, but even if we all teamed up, the CS would STILL win. So run!" Creed flipped them off, grabbed his crotch and proclaimed them all pussies, and that he/tolkeen would do it by themselves, with out anyone's help.

Your point of "There were no suggestions Tolkeen was ruled by evil till the books came out" Well.... yeah. There were no books on tolkeen. Just blurbs here and there. There were no huge details on Lonestar till the lone star book came out. Sure you knew Desmond ran the place and that's where the dog boys came from, b ut not much else. Same with Tolkeen.

The problem in the SoT books, was they didn't detail the city FIRST, so you could use it for the YEARS it took them to finish the series. We only got the city in the same book the CS blew it up. lol.

Things change. The time line moved on. What had been a simple city of magic, due to events in the Rifts world, became an evil city of magic, thus self fulfilling the CS's (Previously erroneous, but now 100% true) Fears of what they were to start with.

[writersblock]

Um...Sci Fi, I hate to say it but...

The Fellowship of the Ring could NEVER have defeated an ARMY on their own, but they still were instrumental in the winning of the war. If they had not completed their quest, the world would have been won by evil.

The Avengers were NOT holding the city in their toe to toe battle with the aliens...but the actions of the party prevented the world from being over run and New York from being nuked.

It is NOT the overall level of power that defines the heroes of a tale, it is the intent and result of their actions. You do not have to be able to take on millions single handed to be the heroes, and the examples I gave prove it.

This is why I have long said the only thing heroic about Superman is that he chose to do the right thing with his powers. He is not a hero because of what he can do, but because he chooses to do THAT instead of ruling the world unopposed.

And if the PCs are NOT meant to be the heroes, why play? Why not watch a movie? I don't play so my character can see the heroes save the day, I play so my character can try to save the day themself.

As to the exhaustive detail...read my post again. BEFORE THE SoT books, there was no suggestion of evil. You cannot use the SoT books to counter a comment specifically referring to before those books.

[Sci-Fi]

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

Um...Sci Fi, I hate to say it but...

The Fellowship of the Ring could NEVER have defeated an ARMY on their own, but they still were instrumental in the winning of the war. If they had not completed their quest, the world would have been won by evil.

But they didn't win the war in the conventional sense. Two hobbits snuck in the back door and dropped a ring in the volcano. Something that could have been accomplished by a guy on a Eagle, and about three paragraphs. The fellowship didn't win the war in battle. If anything it was an act through subterfuge. That's the point. yes your heroes can do things that shine, and what not, but the tolkeen war didn't have a simple action that won the war. It was battles fought toe to toe till one side lost. Not Battles happening then a ring is dropped in the lava and POOF all done.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

[

The Avengers were NOT holding the city in their toe to toe battle with the aliens...but the actions of the party prevented the world from being over run and New York from being nuked.

I pointed out half of that. Hawkeye was out of arrows. Black Widow was out of bullets. Cap was tiring out and being whittled down. Iron man's armor was getting tore up. Hulk was being pounded into the ground by 100s of guys. If not for that 'hand of god'. The Avengers would have lost. They'd have saved some people for a while but they'd have lost. If not for them being chucked a nuke to toss in the portal, and Loki just leaving his staff laying around like a retard, they'd have lost. It was a 'set piece battle'. Tolkeen didn't have that. No "I win button" to hit.

Your heroes could do things of import in the tolkeen war, but even if they didn't, the war ends the same way.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

It is NOT the overall level of power that defines the heroes of a tale, it is the intent and result of their actions.

Intent is great but means nothing with out ability to carry out what you intend. The group of PCs, in the tolkeen war arn't the ones that won the war (or lost it) That's my point. You don't have to be there at all, for the Tolkeen war to end the way it does. Nor would your actions, change the out come. You could save some lives. You might do something significant that turns the tide ofa battle, but the war ends the same either way.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

You do not have to be able to take on millions single handed to be the heroes, and the examples I gave prove it.

You can be a hero if you get a kitten out of a tree. You're still not winning the tolkeen war with your player group.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

This is why I have long said the only thing heroic about Superman is that he chose to do the right thing with his powers. He is not a hero because of what he can do, but because he chooses to do THAT instead of ruling the world unopposed.

Well. Not for nothing, but that's been said, likely before you were born. lol.

Still doesn't change the fact that your player group wasn't the one that won the war.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

And if the PCs are NOT meant to be the heroes, why play?

Because there's a difference between being 'The Heroes that Won the war" and "Being Heroes". In the SoT, it very much is a case, if you're on Tolkeen's side of "Trying to be heroes amongst the abject horrors of the war" Tolkeen had dove full force into evil. If you're on Tolkeen's side you have to put up with that. Even if you're not down with the armies of demons (Not all were) You'd have to avoid them. You might even end up fighting them like many CK's did and end up dead fighting your own team. Or you might see how horrible hte war was and did your part to try and save innocents. Children and such. As both sides were pounding on each other pretty hard.

Even the most heroic PC group isn't winning the war for Tolkeen.

if you're playing on the CS side, well chances are you're a human or dog boy or psistalker. None of those have the ability to win a war of millions all on their own either. You can be heroic on your side. Saving men or units from destruction at the hands of the demons and evil mages trying to kill them, but you didn't take out creed and all his generals on your lonesome.

You play to be a part of the story. Not to win a war of millions with like 5 guys.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

Why not watch a movie? I don't play so my character can see the heroes save the day, I play so my character can try to save the day themself.

And I'm pointing out that this war is bigger than any one guy, or any one player group. As written there is no single point where a player group could 'win' the war. They can contribute. They can surely be heroic during the entire thing. You're not leading the armies of the CS. You're not leading the armies of Tolkeen. There's what, 10 generals in the book? And all of them die or flee? There's no ring to drop in a volcano. No handy phallic nuke to push through a cosmic vagina to win. It was armies of 100s of 1000s and millions pounding on each other till one side won. Your player group can be important, but they didn't win the war.

May 19, 2014 22:41:23 GMT writersblock said:

As to the exhaustive detail...read my post again. BEFORE THE SoT books, there was no suggestion of evil. You cannot use the SoT books to counter a comment specifically referring to before those books.

Yes you can. Simply "Time has passed".

You're not answering anything. You're dodging. Tolkeen became evil, because it ----became----- evil as time passed. It's explained in the book. As I pointed out, before the Tolkeen wars books came out, there wasn't much written on tolkeen at all. "Great city of magic, over there to the left". When detailed and time had passed, things happened.

"Before the SoT books" Is a fixed point in time. Which didn't pertain to the time frame of the SoT, other than it was the 'past'. In the 'past' tolkeen was a city of magic, then they became a evil city of war mongering psycho demon loving magic. Thus becoming what the CS feared they were. And got killed off for it.

You're basically pointing out 'In the few sentences before the area was detailed, we didn't know that it would, through the passage of time and actiosn, become evil" Well. yeah. We only had a few sentences or paragraphs written on it. We knew hardly anything at all. Then the SoT happened and what we knew, changed.

[writersblock]

I think we will just have to disagree on this sort of stuff.

If you look at how Tolkien was referred to in the books, not just the direct entries about it (stuff like Erin Tarn in her stuff and such)there is no suggestion of Tolkien being evil.

As to the PC group being the central group of the story, we see it different.

[Sci-Fi]

You don't think people can change? ANd thus, Cities can change? Just because it's a bastion of good today doesn't mean it won't be a den of Evil next week.

They explained, at length, Tolkeen's dive into evil, it didn't happen over night (as hard as they tried) but it did happen over time.

*shrugs* It 'changed'. It happens. They explained it. Move on.

[writersblock]

There was no book before SoT saying they were evil....nothing until they made it evil for SoT.

Ergo, they did not change. Suddenly, for that book series, they were evil.

[Sci-Fi]

Time passes..... Slowly in Rifts but it passes. Up -untill- that book told us. They had not changed yet. Once that book was published, they had.

I'm not sure why this is a hard concept to grasp. You're sitting there going 'Oh... You can't be in 8th grade kid... NO!! Last year you were in 7th Grade. Up till this year you were in 7th grade.. You can't suddenly be in 8th!"

Gimme a break.

[ninjabunny]

This is still going on? Holy crap artificially interjected robin phrase from the Adam west batman show! Honestly I hated sot for a lot of reasons I knew te CS would win well befor the books. The CS is just painted as war dogs, this is a nation of people who honestly do think the shit and lies the high command feed them is real! They only ever see the horrible things being done to them by d-bee terrorizsts and magic users. They never see the Mage pop in to stop the teleported nuke or what-have-you. Tolkieen was painted as the little cousin to the bully who beat up the current bully. They were going to get slaughtered, but they wanted lots of books so we got SoT... Blah.

[writersblock]

See, Tolkeen is a needed balance in the Rifts world. It stood as a counter to the CS and specifically to Chi Town. It served as the "good guys" to the CS "bad guys" and therefore provided balance to North America.

Now that it is gone, the CS have nothing in their way.

Lazlo is kidding itself if it thinks it has long to live; staying out of the conflict was a huge mistake. Once they are gone, who stops the CS? No one. The Cyber Knights are living on borrowed time as they have no nation and stand largely in opposition to the CS motto of "might makes right". Any chance they had of standing up to CS oppression died in SoT. The Pecos Empire will NEVER stand before the sort of things the CS proved themselves willing to do in SoT...and any remaining fragments of the Fed of Magic should be wetting themselves with the fall of a pyramid protected city. Maybe the Xiticix slow the CS down, but apparently (based on SoT) it is ok to use nukes again so the bug hives won't slow things up long.

Basically, there is no reason the next source book, set 15 yrs or so after SoT, will not be "Rifts North America: The New Coalition Empire."

[ninjabunny]

If that's how you see it that's how you see it.