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Post by Jaymz on Jan 27, 2014 17:32:44 GMT
Ok the XP discussion on facebook got me thinking and taking a conversation I had with Joshua Gorrell, I came up with this. It was just a quick type up this morning once my brain had coffee in it.
Create character as usual.
Once character is created XP is doled out by GMs as usual. The difference is you do not "level up" with your XP. You spend it on increasing your skills, spells or powers individually.
Costs to increase skills is as follows:
Percentage based Class Skills (Those skills available to the OCC)
1st to 5th level costs 75 to increase per level.
6th to 10th level cost 150 to increase per level.
11th to 15th level cost 300 to increase per level.
See individual skills for the appropriate percentage increses.
WP and HTH class skills
1st to 5th level costs 100 to increase per level.
6th to 10th level cost 300 to increase per level.
11th to 15th level cost 500 to increase per level.
See appropriate level reward for these skills.
Cost for a new class skill is 500 and starts at level 1.
Non "class" skill costs are double.
Secondary skill costs are half to buy as a new skill. Costs to increase are the same as class skills.
Mages
Increasing the effectiveness of a spell is the same cost as a class skill. However to get the spell costs the level of the spell times the appropriate cost of that category.
Example to attain a 7th level it costs 2100 XP (7 x 300) and is equal to first level effectiveness. Spend XP to increase the effectivenness as you would any other skill.
All spells are equal to first level effectiveness when purchased.
Increase spell strength costs 300 for the first increase. 600 for the second and 1000 for the third. Giving a max spell strength of 15 for invocations and 19 for rituals.
Available spells would be limited by the specific classes as they are now.
Gaining additional PPE: Flat cost of 500 to get X PPE (dependent on specific class)
Psychics
Increasing the effectiveness of minor powers is the same cost as class skills.
Increasing the effectiveness of super powers is the same cost as non-class skills.
Getting new powers however costs as follows:
Minor powers are purchased at a cost of 500.
Super Powers are purchased at a cost of 1000 XP.
All powers are equal to first level effectiveness when purchased.
Available powers would be limited by the specific classes as they are now.
Gaining additional ISP: Flat cost of 300 to get X ISP (dependent on specific class)
All skills, spells and powers can only be increased once per adventure (not per session)
This also does not take into account how to increase HP, SDC or MDC of the character. Perhaps 250 for 5 SDC and 500 for 5 HP/MDC?
This could also allow for increasing attributes if so desired. Maybe New Attribute x 1000? So going from 12-13 would cost 13 000 XP? Attributes should be costly outside of skill selection if allow this.
Anyway have at it.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 28, 2014 17:23:26 GMT
Like I said on FB, my setup is pretty closes to Jaymz's.
Character Creation as normal
Skills: '
Non- WP/HtH skills:
A new skill: 300 for on your OCC list, 500 for a skill not on your list
Increasing a skill (from OCC list) Levels 2-5: new level x100. Levels 6-10: new level x 125. Levels 11-15: new level x 150
Increasing a skill NOT on OCC list: Levels 2-5: new level x150. Levels 6-10: new level x 200. Levels 11-15: new level x 250
WPs:
New WP: 500 if on class list, 750 if not on OCC list
Increasing: 2-5: new level x 125. 6-10: new level x150. 11-15: new level x200
HtH: If didn't previously have it, 750 for Basic, 1000 for expert, 1500 for MA or Assassin (class restrictions for assassin still apply)
Increasing 2-5: new level x 200, 6-10: new level x250, 11+: new level x 300
Psychics:
Powers are limited to OCCs as per book
Gaining a power: Minor: 500, Super 1000. When you get a power, it's "first level"
Improving a power: Minor: new level x 250. Super: New level x500
ISP: 250 per D6
Mages:
Spells are limited by the book
New Spells: Level of spell x 150
Improving a spell: new level x 200
PPE: Casters: 200 per D6, Summoners: 250 per 3d6, Diabolists: 250 per 1d6
(Yes, this makes it look like it's cheaper for a mage but, if you think about it, it's not. Most spells are MUCH more expensive than psionics to use. Also, the
variation in spell level will cost a lot more in the long run)
New Circles: Protection: 500, Summoning 750, Power 1250
Improving circles: protection: new level x 200, summoning: new level x300, power: new level x 500
New Wards (yes, you start with all known, but the GM may have his own house ones) 1000
Improving: new level x 200. Note- yes, this means different wards in a chain can have multiple levels of effectiveness Maybe a wide area (area affect), but weaker
damage
HP: 500 per D6
SDC: 300 per D6
MDC: 750 per D6
The only part I haven't worked out is the increases various OCCs get at different levels (such as bonuses to save, the assassins extra attacks, or the difficulty to
save against psychics and wizards_
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 28, 2014 17:39:45 GMT
And i didnt even consider bumping stats. If i were to put it on, I'd say..
Max if +3. New stat x 1500. Each bump must be bought separately from each other (no jumping from 10-12)
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Post by writersblock on Feb 8, 2014 4:58:23 GMT
I cannot express enough my abject HATRED for point based systems.
There is only one in my life I ever found that I liked: WEG D6.
I dislike GURPS, but could live with it. Disliked White Wolf and Cyberpunk too, but lived with it. Those three are the ONLY point based ones I would ever have patience enough to ever play again.
HATE point based systems.
I would rather keep track of XP and level all at once than worry about point spending.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Feb 8, 2014 6:30:51 GMT
Dont hold back,tell us how you really feel.
So WHY do you have such feelings for the pointbased? Obviously, if you found ONE you liked, there must be something else to your dislike.
Not evryone dislikes pointbased, and indeed, there are many arguments FOR pointbased systems. Customizability, realism, practicality.
Instead of a blanket "pointbased are the Debil" statement, care to address the posts and why they work or not?
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Post by damianmagecraft on Feb 8, 2014 7:09:33 GMT
Dont hold back,tell us how you really feel. So WHY do you have such feelings for the pointbased? Obviously, if you found ONE you liked, there must be something else to your dislike. Not evryone dislikes pointbased, and indeed, there are many arguments FOR pointbased systems. Customizability, realism, practicality. Instead of a blanket "pointbased are the Debil" statement, care to address the posts and why they work or not? I cannot speak for Writersblock but for me it is that point buy systems lack a feeling of advancement; or the advancement rate is too excruciatingly slow. That someone was able to stomach official WW games baffles me... By the book a single session is only to net at best 4 points (and that assumes you meet the criteria to get that many Average xp reward is 1 or 2 points). and when advancement costs upwards of 40 points for ONE thing that gets old fast. I would rather see a hybrid level/point buy design. where every level grants you X number of points for skills and skills cost A, B, or C number of points (cost dependent on if its considered a class skill, trained skill, etc...) This way there is no sitting stagnate for 10 to 20 sessions while you wait to earn enough to raise that one ability. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Feb 8, 2014 8:36:57 GMT
DM-
If you take a look at what Jaymz and I did, it actually nixes that slow rate problem you describe. In fact, if you run the numbers, youll see that costs are fairly similar to buy what you woould get per level. A lot of the variance is because different classes get different numbers of skills and exp charts. But, all in all, pretty close.
And, in a vase like this, personally, i feel it ups the "getting somewhere" feeling. You dont have to wait and get everything at once. You improve what you want as soon as youre able, not having to wait.
Think of it like this- as a char, i can go from 5-6 and increase all my skills. Or, I can improve my skills one at a time, having a steady progression, and have the same effective endpoint. But, i got use out of all that exp gained along the way.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Feb 8, 2014 9:35:48 GMT
looking over the rules a bit more I see something else I have issue with when it comes to leveless systems.
Rote magic gets both over powered and severely gimped at the same time. (GURPS has this same problem to a larger degree).
With this system there is no benefit to selecting any class past "magic-user" and can end up with a mage in two or three adventures that is hell on wheels with one or two spells.
The limit of only a +3 on spell strength is a slap in the face to both wizards and LLWs (both can gain a max of +4) and a gift to clerics (+2 max).
The magic section needs more work before it reaches parity.
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Post by Jaymz on Feb 8, 2014 13:23:26 GMT
Actually, if I were running this I would still impose the restrictions each class has.....
IE Ley Line Walker cannot spend XP on any spells higher than their own level.
Also IIRC is Ley Line Walkers get a +1 spell strength at level 4, 8 and 12 which only gives a max bonus of +3 not +4
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Post by damianmagecraft on Feb 8, 2014 13:57:42 GMT
Actually, if I were running this I would still impose the restrictions each class has..... IE Ley Line Walker cannot spend XP on any spells higher than their own level. Also IIRC is Ley Line Walkers get a +1 spell strength at level 4, 8 and 12 which only gives a max bonus of +3 not +4 RUE Page 116 Under ability #13 O.C.C. Bonuses +1 to spell strength at levels 3, 7, 10, and 13 Also how is the LLW/Wizard ability to learn any spell at any time (besides level up) handled? This ability falls outside of the point buy rules. |
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Post by Jaymz on Feb 8, 2014 14:03:25 GMT
Ah... ok I think it was changed from RMB...that is minor change to make by upping the cap is all. And would fall within being governed by the class itself. The point buy is only to be for spells gained through "experience" as they are now gained by leveling up. Classes that can buy/learn spells outside of their "experience" still would be able to do so. As long as they have the cash of course  |
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Post by damianmagecraft on Feb 8, 2014 14:10:10 GMT
Actually, if I were running this I would still impose the restrictions each class has..... IE Ley Line Walker cannot spend XP on any spells higher than their own level. it is a levelless system... they have no levels to limit them... so I can never increase a spell past level 1? Confusion setting in. |
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Post by Jaymz on Feb 8, 2014 14:16:58 GMT
hmm...yeah I see your point there.
well simple fix would be keeping an accumulated total XP as your "level" while still spending the XP to advance skills and powers.
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Post by writersblock on Feb 8, 2014 20:25:19 GMT
One of my BIG problems with point based is that if there is no restrictions, or lots of cross over, classes disappear after a few levels. The players learn what point values to numerical advantage calculations are optimal, and go for them at the cost of class, character, and role play.
Another prob I have, is when rules lawyers and math gods get a hold of them. The above comment grows from the problem I just stated to one of "god building" where we mere mortals who can't be bothered to do a Mathematics Thesis on the system end up feeling like our characters should have retired to the country before the campaign even started...and we are only third level (or whatever).
As evidence of that, I have played in conventional, and home brew, point based games. Level becomes irrelevant VERY quickly, class becomes impossible to distinguish, and once I played in one where my single class mage was in a party with a min-max rules guy who (with both characters at same level) could cast my character's magic better...and was more of a warrior, and had other magics...etc etc.
As a means to point to all of this, Jaymz has already said he as a GM would impose restrictions...
Those are just a few problems.
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Post by Jaymz on Feb 8, 2014 21:05:44 GMT
well to be fair, the restrictions are such that already exist and in a later post I did say an easy fix to sort of "keep" levels to some degree is easy enough to do while still allowing customization by spending point  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 18:57:30 GMT
OK, so what are you using for Xp gain? What criteria do you have for encounters and RP actions? I, and my gamers, feel that the current XP system is too arnitrary we look at it and say 'What constitutes a minor or major threat?" this becomes important when you consider the fact that the average Rifts PC can wield inordinate amounts of fire power.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Apr 10, 2014 6:32:23 GMT
OK, so what are you using for Xp gain? What criteria do you have for encounters and RP actions? I, and my gamers, feel that the current XP system is too arnitrary we look at it and say 'What constitutes a minor or major threat?" this becomes important when you consider the fact that the average Rifts PC can wield inordinate amounts of fire power. I go by a "feel" for the combat. Did the party just waltz through it or did they have to work at it? If they had to work at it how hard did they work? A lot of this is going to depend on the makeup of the party. EG: CS S&D unit vs the party. Party 1: Mixed group of Demi-gods, Godlings, and Dragons? Minor menace. Party 2: Mixed group of Borgs, Juicers, Crazies, and LLWs? Major menace. party 3: Mixed group of Vagabonds, Scholars, and City Rats? Great Menace. |
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