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Post by Josh Hilden on May 5, 2014 17:34:59 GMT
To be fair in hindsight it was crystal clear what was going to happen, I don't blame anyone more than a I blame myself.
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 5, 2014 18:08:01 GMT
Question:
Josh, are you the same Josh Hilden that posts on the official forums?
Cuz.. there's a Josh Hilden over there, that just today posted "I will say as a former Palladium associate I put zero credibility behind the conspiracy theories. Also knowing Kevin I have no doubt that no one is more frustrated than him."
And yet, here, you're..... how do we say. Not exactly talking him up and defending him. Infact pretty open to rip on him.
As for the "No one is more frustrated than him"... I call -bullshit- on that one. He got his money. The customers who don't have their product are going to be more frustrated than the guy sitting on thousands of dollars he got paid, last year. The way they put out NG1 and NG2, shows very clearly that once they get the money, their drive to produce is dramatically reduced. Hell, not for nothing, they got paid for Robotech, and... it's late, split in half, going to be later, and as best I can discern from what I've read, are pointing 100% of that at Ninja Division, and others.
Sorry. I don't buy the "Noone's more frustrated than Kevin" Shit. If that were true, stuff wouldn't be 18 months late with some back handed insults that we're ungrateful for all the stuff that was added.
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Post by Josh Hilden on May 5, 2014 18:18:58 GMT
Yes that's me and I stand by it, I knew him pretty well and this has got to be tearing him up. And as to the conspiracy theories I don't buy them either. And finally as to my not bitching about my former situation and the behind the scenes stuff at Palladium I'd rather not stir shit on the official boards. They leave me alone I leave them alone. But everything I post there I believe and everything I post anywhere else I believe I just choose to restrict what I put up over there.
You will notice I was speaking of intent and state of mind, I categorically think they've fumbled the whole process.
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Post by Josh Hilden on May 5, 2014 18:24:58 GMT
And just to nip anything in bud I have no issue with someone believing I'm wrong. I was just expressing my opinion and I really couldn't care less about it beyond a voyeuristic interest.  |
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Anybody
May 5, 2014 18:25:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by ninjabunny on May 5, 2014 18:25:52 GMT
I don't think Kevin had intended to fuck up this bad but he always does fuck up this bad. Does he need to put forth more of a effort to not have these fuck ups? Yes, but that would require not surrounding yourself with yes men and myopic cowards. Someone once said "truth hurts" it is something I hold to be true.
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 5, 2014 18:36:08 GMT
Ok. I figured you were the same guy (First and last names don't tend to be ripped off) The difference in posting was curious. I don't post everything I think over there either. I'd be banned pdq. It just seemed very different. You posting in his defense there and... well. Differently here. lol.
What conspiracy theories are you referencing? ( Honestly asking. I don't know of any conspiracy.)
As for him being tore up. Meh. he doesn't act like it. Sorry "He's a nice guy" Doesn't give him a pass. And again. Look at NG1 and NG2. "Will be out in a few weeks. Will be out in a month" KA-CHING!!! MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!!! and 18-19 months later we're looking to get the second one. Sorry that's not the result of someone being all tore up about something. Look at the other projects that were advanced infront of the books he took the money for. Look at his posts now where he's not once but a few times back handed the customer base with his words. Ohhh I'm so sorry I gave you more than I orignally said. I guess I was just stupid to expand the book. Stupid fucking me. Well I've learned. I'm not going to expand any more!! You'll get the page count and not one word more! Type crap. That's not someone tore up about his customers being on the hook a year and a half for a book he promised in weeks. That's someone pissy that customers dared to bitch about the books he took in 40 grand for and then threw to the side and let languish for over a fucking year.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's some evil mastermind. I'm just saying he got PAID and his --actions-- have shown that once paid, his 'concern' for things is dramatically reduced. I don't think it's some grand conspiracy. Nor do I think the -constant- lies about release dates are some grand conspiracy. They're just him lieing 52+ times a year to his customer base. "Oh he really wants to get stuff out by those dates" Means -nothing- if he never does, and his customers --know-- the release dates are bullshit.
Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense.
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Post by damianmagecraft on May 6, 2014 5:57:34 GMT
Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense. My grandfather had a saying... "Fool me once... Shame on you. Fool me Twice... Shame on me." Gotta agree with that guy. You know the company track record... 30 years of missed dead lines. What made you think this one time would be different? |
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Anybody
May 6, 2014 6:12:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by ninjabunny on May 6, 2014 6:12:53 GMT
Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense. My grandfather had a saying... "Fool me once... Shame on you. Fool me Twice... Shame on me." Gotta agree with that guy. You know the company track record... 30 years of missed dead lines. What made you think this one time would be different? I think that the saying holds validity to a point. But blaming people that had no knowledge of palladiums bad history shouldn't be done. Also Kevin at some point has to take responsibility for his failures and lies. Do I see that happening anytime soon? No. Do I think people have a right to be mad even of they know palladiums bad record? Yes. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 6, 2014 11:43:37 GMT
Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense. My grandfather had a saying... "Fool me once... Shame on you. Fool me Twice... Shame on me." Gotta agree with that guy. You know the company track record... 30 years of missed dead lines. What made you think this one time would be different? It's not my fault if you lie to me. It's not my fault if I hold you to your word, even if you've lied to me before. If you lied to me, you're still the liar, even if such lies are expected. Because you're a known liar, doesn't make it some how my fault you lied. You're still the one lieing. *Shrugs* Trying to put blame on someone else, for you lieing is just bullshit. Same thing as I said over there. Noone's 'surprised' or in the post above "Fooled". The lies still remain. I don't let someone off the hook for lieing to my face, even if they've done it before. They've still lied to my face. Nor do I see it as my fault they lied. They're the ones sprouting the lies. Blaming me for them lieing is bullshit. Blaim the fucking liar's for lieing. Every damn time. Surprised? no. Fooled? no. Still hold someone accountable for what they say? Yes. Even liars. Even known liars, are still telling lies if they speak untruth. The aspect of being a liar, doesn't excuse their lies. |
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Post by MacrossMike on May 6, 2014 14:06:30 GMT
What conspiracy theories are you referencing? ( Honestly asking. I don't know of any conspiracy.) Really? There's a bunch of them surrounding this Kickstarter project. The most common is that Palladium is deliberately fobbing you all off with inferior product so they can pocket as much of the money as they can to stay fiscally solvent. Others include claims that Palladium's been leading absolutely every aspect of this project, and that's why it's awful, or that this whole project was never intended to meet with success because it was just a hasty cash grab by Palladium and Harmony Gold. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's some evil mastermind. I'm just saying he got PAID and his --actions-- have shown that once paid, his 'concern' for things is dramatically reduced. I don't think it's some grand conspiracy. Nor do I think the -constant- lies about release dates are some grand conspiracy. They're just him lieing 52+ times a year to his customer base. "Oh he really wants to get stuff out by those dates" Means -nothing- if he never does, and his customers --know-- the release dates are bullshit. Well, yeah... nobody's seriously defending the lack of urgency Palladium's put into this, though many of us (myself included) are saying the outrage over the delays should be tempered by the fact that delays like this are more the rule rather than the exception when it comes to Kickstarter projects that exceed their goals. Very few people are defending Palladium. Most of the so-called "defenders" are just trying to get the backers to spend less time on paranoid whining about how Kevin is a mustache-twirling Captain Planet villain screwing them for the lulz and temper their legitimate complaints with a healthy dose of realism. It does the upset people no good to take a "if you're not in complete agreement with us, you're defending Palladium" view. It makes the complaints the backers are raising, many of which are entirely justified, look less credible. Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense. *blink* 's it just me, or does this not at all jive with your previous paragraph? You said that Kevin's customers know the release dates are bullshit, which validates the view that anyone who actually believed them this time must be an idiot or at least have suffered a recent blow to the head. You can't call it a "dumbass defense" if it's not actually defending anything. They're not saying "this is excusable", all that's said is "They lie to you constantly about this exact subject... it's the very essence of stupidity to believe that they wouldn't lie to you about this when they're lying to you about everything else." We're just sick of hearing people who should have known better, and often insist that they DID know better, whine about how surprised and betrayed they feel because Kevin did the same goddamn thing that they know he always does. I think that the saying holds validity to a point. But blaming people that had no knowledge of palladiums bad history shouldn't be done. But the people who are doing all this carping too often admit they KNEW about Palladium's history of setting and missing over-optimistic release targets. For the ones who didn't... one of the fundamentals of investing is to check the rep of the company you're investing in BEFORE you let them pocket your money. If you invest in a vaporware company like Infinium Labs and you get burned because of it, no sympathy will be given because five minutes of checking would've told you getting burned was almost a mathematical certainty. If you turn your back on a man whose name is Back Stabbington the Backstabber who's just been paroled after serving time for hundreds of counts of stabbing people in the back, you have no right to act like it's a surprise when the knife ends up in your back next. It's not my fault if you lie to me. It's not my fault if I hold you to your word, even if you've lied to me before. If you lied to me, you're still the liar, even if such lies are expected. Because you're a known liar, doesn't make it some how my fault you lied. You're still the one lieing. See? This is why it's all but impossible to take the victim-whining of the backers seriously. You're honestly trying to say that if you choose to trust a person who has lied to you constantly and consistently for decades, that you don't bear any portion of the blame when you get burned because of it. No, it doesn't excuse the liar for lying... but it doesn't make the person who chose to believe the compulsive liar, knowing full well that they ARE a compulsive liar, any less of a dumbass. Yes, the backers have a right to be upset. What they DON'T have is a right to act like this was a goddamn surprise. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 6, 2014 19:28:33 GMT
What conspiracy theories are you referencing? ( Honestly asking. I don't know of any conspiracy.) Really? There's a bunch of them surrounding this Kickstarter project. The most common is that Palladium is deliberately fobbing you all off with inferior product so they can pocket as much of the money as they can to stay fiscally solvent. I'm not sure that's a conspiracy theory. That's a business practice. As a business they're IN BUSINESS to make money. One way to do so is to spend less to produce product, you're charging more for. Now the 'extent' of going for cheep product varies. But I don't see how that'd be a conspiracy theory. The work is being done in China. Not in one of Michigan's' many plastics companies. Saying that they are going for cheaper out put on their end doesn't seem to be a wrong assumption. Sending all the production to China isn't going out of one's way to spend more for higher quality. Others include claims that Palladium's been leading absolutely every aspect of this project, and that's why it's awful Maybe I'm not understanding, but.. Palladium IS running the project. Their name is on it. Theirs is on the kickstarter, etc. Ninja Division is a subcontractor and the chinese company is another subcontractor. Correct? or that this whole project was never intended to meet with success because it was just a hasty cash grab by Palladium and Harmony Gold. Seems counterlogical. While cash grabs do happen, I don't understand a claim that they'd purposefully set out to fail. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he's some evil mastermind. I'm just saying he got PAID and his --actions-- have shown that once paid, his 'concern' for things is dramatically reduced. I don't think it's some grand conspiracy. Nor do I think the -constant- lies about release dates are some grand conspiracy. They're just him lieing 52+ times a year to his customer base. "Oh he really wants to get stuff out by those dates" Means -nothing- if he never does, and his customers --know-- the release dates are bullshit. Well, yeah... nobody's seriously defending the lack of urgency Palladium's put into this, though many of us (myself included) are saying the outrage over the delays should be tempered by the fact that delays like this are more the rule rather than the exception when it comes to Kickstarter projects that exceed their goals. Very few people are defending Palladium. Most of the so-called "defenders" are just trying to get the backers to spend less time on paranoid whining about how Kevin is a mustache-twirling Captain Planet villain screwing them for the lulz and temper their legitimate complaints with a healthy dose of realism. Ahh, well i don't think he's mustash twirling at all. I just think as pointed out above, once he got paid, his drive to complete the work went out the window. He's got his money, at this point and it doesn't matter if we get the product in a month or in 20 months. People saying "Oh he's tore up more than anyone" make me laugh. If he was so tore up, he'd finish the work on time. He wouldn't post for weeks and weeks about bird watching and entierly normal weather for the winter in MI. Him simply saying he knows stuff is late, once a week and it's all going to be epic, doesn't mean he's tore up more than the people who have paid him money. It does the upset people no good to take a "if you're not in complete agreement with us, you're defending Palladium" view. It makes the complaints the backers are raising, many of which are entirely justified, look less credible. Well some people are defending palladium. When someone tries and put the blame on late product on people, for expecting it on time, it's bullshit and going to piss people off. Hell the thread over on the official boards, another guy is falling into the "It's your fault if you believe the bold face lies that Palladium tells you. Not theirs" Dumbass defense. *blink* 's it just me, or does this not at all jive with your previous paragraph? You said that Kevin's customers know the release dates are bullshit, which validates the view that anyone who actually believed them this time must be an idiot or at least have suffered a recent blow to the head. Not at all. Previous lies do not make this one any different. If someone lies to you, they're lieing to you. If they lied to you previously that doesn't forgive the present lie. It may be an -expected- lie, but it's still not your fault if the other guy lies to you. Expecting someone to do what they say isn't a fault. If they lie to you, they're still the one's lieing. If it's a company, that's not to just be hand waved. "Oh well they always lie. So it's on you" is stupid. They're the one's telling the lie. It's their 'fault' every time they lie. Not the customers. To tell customers to ASSUME the company is lieing is a moronic defense. None of these people are going to walk up to Kevin at a convention and go "Don't worry Kev. I've got your back. I told your customers they're fucking morons for actually believing you! We all know you lie through your teeth! It's on those idiots if they actually believed you! Ha!! They must have suffered a blow to the head to think what YOU told them straight up, could ever be true! Gimme a fist bump, right!" Can you imagine? You can't call it a "dumbass defense" if it's not actually defending anything. That's the thing. That is how some 'defend' palladium. By saying the customer is an idiot and should know he's being lied to, as Palladium lies ______SO MUCH______ that if you DON'T Know you're being lied to, you're an idiot that should have done more research. They're not saying "this is excusable", all that's said is "They lie to you constantly about this exact subject... it's the very essence of stupidity to believe that they wouldn't lie to you about this when they're lying to you about everything else." It's a transferal of blame, from the liar, to the one being lied to, as if some how it's the person being lied to's fault, for expecting them to tell the truth. It's still the liar, lieing. We're just sick of hearing people who should have known better, and often insist that they DID know better, whine about how surprised and betrayed they feel because Kevin did the same goddamn thing that they know he always does. As has been explained, repeatedly. There's a difference between "Surprised" and "Pissed" One isn't surprised that they were lied to again. One can still be pissed, every time they're lied to. This "You shouldn't be surprised, DUH!" thing is another way of transferring blame. I think that the saying holds validity to a point. But blaming people that had no knowledge of palladiums bad history shouldn't be done. But the people who are doing all this carping too often admit they KNEW about Palladium's history of setting and missing over-optimistic release targets. For the ones who didn't... one of the fundamentals of investing is to check the rep of the company you're investing in BEFORE you let them pocket your money. If you invest in a vaporware company like Infinium Labs and you get burned because of it, no sympathy will be given because five minutes of checking would've told you getting burned was almost a mathematical certainty. If you turn your back on a man whose name is Back Stabbington the Backstabber who's just been paroled after serving time for hundreds of counts of stabbing people in the back, you have no right to act like it's a surprise when the knife ends up in your back next. It's not my fault if you lie to me. It's not my fault if I hold you to your word, even if you've lied to me before. If you lied to me, you're still the liar, even if such lies are expected. Because you're a known liar, doesn't make it some how my fault you lied. You're still the one lieing. See? This is why it's all but impossible to take the victim-whining of the backers seriously. It is? Wow... It's the person's fault he's lied to and he has no right to be pissed? Pretty weird world you live in Mike. You're honestly trying to say that if you choose to trust a person who has lied to you constantly and consistently for decades, that you don't bear any portion of the blame when you get burned because of it. No. I'm saying THEY are the one's that lied. I didn't make them lie. It's not my fault they lied. It was a choice they made. No, it doesn't excuse the liar for lying... but it doesn't make the person who chose to believe the compulsive liar, knowing full well that they ARE a compulsive liar, any less of a dumbass. Well fuck you too. But again you miss the point. It's not about thinking that Palladium is suddenly going to tell the truth after a history of lieing. It's about holding them responsable for lieing every time they do, and not giving them a pass because they've lied in the past. Again this goes to the "Oh you shouldn't be surprised dumbass" thing. Noone was "Surprised". The lies -are- expected. Noone's gasping all shocked that we were lied to again. We knew palladium lies all the time. They still lied to us when they took our money. Just because someone has lied in the past doesn't absolve them of guilt when they lie again. Even if it's expected. They're still lieing. This time they took money first and lied. Every time they lie, they're doing wrong by their customers. The customers can get pissed every time. [ Yes, the backers have a right to be upset. What they DON'T have is a right to act like this was a goddamn surprise. Good thing noone I know DID act like it's a surprise. The only people seeing or denoting 'Surprise' are the people defending palladium and using it to attack those that are pissed. Hell in the last week, the total -lack- of surprise has been posted repeatedly, yet, it gets thrown out there every time. Noone's surprised. They're pissed. |
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Post by MacrossMike on May 6, 2014 20:17:08 GMT
I'm not sure that's a conspiracy theory. That's a business practice. As a business they're IN BUSINESS to make money. One way to do so is to spend less to produce product, you're charging more for. I think the allegations of conspiracy tend more towards claiming Kevin's slowly skewing the product more towards the "crap" end of the spectrum as Palladium's budget gets tighter elsewhere. Now the 'extent' of going for cheep product varies. But I don't see how that'd be a conspiracy theory. The work is being done in China. Not in one of Michigan's' many plastics companies. Now, being a Michigan resident and someone with fairly tight work-related ties to the parts prototyping business, I'm not aware of many casting houses that would do miniatures on a large scale. Most of our plastics industry here is specialized for manufacturing interior trim components for cars and trucks. Maybe I'm not understanding, but.. Palladium IS running the project. Their name is on it. Theirs is on the kickstarter, etc. Ninja Division is a subcontractor and the chinese company is another subcontractor. Correct? As far as they've indicated, this is a partnership. Ninja Division was specifically brought in to handle the design and release of the minis for the game, while Palladium focused on the rules, and Harmony Gold had approvals over everything. Unless something has changed, the only sense in which Palladum is running this project is that they gave Ninja Division a requirements document and are handling customer relations and distribution. Ahh, well i don't think he's mustash twirling at all. I just think as pointed out above, once he got paid, his drive to complete the work went out the window. He's got his money, at this point and it doesn't matter if we get the product in a month or in 20 months. People saying "Oh he's tore up more than anyone" make me laugh. If he was so tore up, he'd finish the work on time. You don't, but there are a fair number of people on the Palladium Books forums acting like Kevin's doing this for the pure pleasure of pissing them off... like he's doing it to collect and drink their tears or some ridiculous horseshit like that. Well some people are defending palladium. When someone tries and put the blame on late product on people, for expecting it on time, it's bullshit and going to piss people off. If you go into a situation with unrealistic expectations, knowing full well that the promises being made are impossible to keep, whose fault is it that you're PO'd? Yours, because the unrealistic expectations were formed by you in defiance of what you already knew was the truth. It's not bullshit, it's called being rational. Not at all. Previous lies do not make this one any different. If someone lies to you, they're lieing to you. If they lied to you previously that doesn't forgive the present lie. It may be an -expected- lie, but it's still not your fault if the other guy lies to you. Exactly, and nobody is saying the lie isn't wrong... we're saying the people who took leave of their senses and chose to believe that their release date announcement was honest and achievable instead of complete horse crap are idiots for believing the word of a known liar, and thus every bit as responsible for their disappointment as Palladium is. See the difference now? "Oh well they always lie. So it's on you" is stupid. No, it really isn't... that's why "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is a saying. If you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person has consistently told bald-faced, obvious lies to you about a particular subject for years and you choose to believe him anyway for no reason... yes, he's still lying, and that still makes him an asshole, but the only person you can blame for feeling let down when the lie is revealed to be a lie is YOU for being the kind of massive idiot that would spontaneously believe the word of a known liar. They're the one's telling the lie. It's their 'fault' every time they lie. Not the customers. To tell customers to ASSUME the company is lieing is a moronic defense. See? You're still trying to characterize this as a "defense" of Palladium... and that right there is fundamentally invalidating your argument. Nobody here is saying Palladium should be excused for delivering late, but we ARE saying that you should stop acting like this is something fucking unprecedented. You took a risk and you got burned, if you didn't understand the risk you shouldn't have backed the game. None of these people are going to walk up to Kevin at a convention and go "Don't worry Kev. I've got your back. I told your customers they're fucking morons for actually believing you! We all know you lie through your teeth! It's on those idiots if they actually believed you! Ha!! They must have suffered a blow to the head to think what YOU told them straight up, could ever be true! Gimme a fist bump, right!" Can you imagine? I'm going to do this now. Seriously. His face would be priceless. Still, realistically, we'd just be telling him a more reasonable version of what the other backers are... that it's NOT acceptable to deliver late, or deliver a shit product. We just don't kid ourselves and pretend this is anything other than the status motherfucking quo. We also temper our outrage a little with the knowledge of things like the marked tendency of Kickstarters which exceed their goals to run behind schedule due to the extra commitments required. Realism vs. amateur dramatics. That's the thing. That is how some 'defend' palladium. By saying the customer is an idiot and should know he's being lied to, as Palladium lies ______SO MUCH______ that if you DON'T Know you're being lied to, you're an idiot that should have done more research. So... in your very strange world view, you defend a company by telling people it's run by fuckwits? Man, what color is the sky in your world? And yes, if you don't do your research before you invest in a company, you ARE an idiot... unless you get a huge RoI, then you're just a lucky bastard. It's a transferal of blame, from the liar, to the one being lied to, as if some how it's the person being lied to's fault, for expecting them to tell the truth. It's still the liar, lieing. No, this tedious exercise of yours is a transferal of blame from the idiot who's upset that he got burned after making a stupid decision to the person telling them they should have exercised a little common sense. If you put your hand on a running stovetop and get burned, is it the stove top's fault? No. Everybody knows that the stove is hot when it's on. Is it my fault for telling you you were an idiot to put your hand on the stovetop? No. I just pointed out that you did a dumb thing and, as a grown man, you should have known better than to do something so blindingly stupid. It is? Wow... It's the person's fault he's lied to and he has no right to be pissed? Pretty weird world you live in Mike. If you make a conscious decision to trust someone you KNOW BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT is untrustworthy, you have very little right to claim you're a victim when it bites you in the arse. You can still be upset, but nobody is going to feel sorry for you because you did a very stupid thing. Especially if you try to act as though it wasn't the most obvious outcome in the world. No. I'm saying THEY are the one's that lied. I didn't make them lie. It's not my fault they lied. It was a choice they made. Yes, and we're saying that you made a choice to believe someone you knew was lying to you... which makes you an idiot, and robs your complaints about being lied to of much of their validity. But again you miss the point. It's not about thinking that Palladium is suddenly going to tell the truth after a history of lieing. It's about holding them responsable for lieing every time they do, and not giving them a pass because they've lied in the past. But the problem here is that you don't even know what the division of actual responsibility is, or who's responsible for the delays. You're ASSUMING this is all Palladium's fault. You're ASSUMING Palladium was leading every aspect of the game's development. You even ASSUMED that the schedule wouldn't slip as the result of the Kickstarter exceeding its goals. You've done a lot of assuming... it might be time to consider if you're in possession of enough of the facts to be assigning blame. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 6, 2014 21:14:16 GMT
I'm not sure that's a conspiracy theory. That's a business practice. As a business they're IN BUSINESS to make money. One way to do so is to spend less to produce product, you're charging more for. I think the allegations of conspiracy tend more towards claiming Kevin's slowly skewing the product more towards the "crap" end of the spectrum as Palladium's budget gets tighter elsewhere. Now the 'extent' of going for cheep product varies. But I don't see how that'd be a conspiracy theory. The work is being done in China. Not in one of Michigan's' many plastics companies. Now, being a Michigan resident and someone with fairly tight work-related ties to the parts prototyping business, I'm not aware of many casting houses that would do miniatures on a large scale. Most of our plastics industry here is specialized for manufacturing interior trim components for cars and trucks. Maybe I'm not understanding, but.. Palladium IS running the project. Their name is on it. Theirs is on the kickstarter, etc. Ninja Division is a subcontractor and the chinese company is another subcontractor. Correct? As far as they've indicated, this is a partnership. Ninja Division was specifically brought in to handle the design and release of the minis for the game, while Palladium focused on the rules, and Harmony Gold had approvals over everything. Unless something has changed, the only sense in which Palladum is running this project is that they gave Ninja Division a requirements document and are handling customer relations and distribution. Ahh, well i don't think he's mustash twirling at all. I just think as pointed out above, once he got paid, his drive to complete the work went out the window. He's got his money, at this point and it doesn't matter if we get the product in a month or in 20 months. People saying "Oh he's tore up more than anyone" make me laugh. If he was so tore up, he'd finish the work on time. You don't, but there are a fair number of people on the Palladium Books forums acting like Kevin's doing this for the pure pleasure of pissing them off... like he's doing it to collect and drink their tears or some ridiculous horseshit like that. Well some people are defending palladium. When someone tries and put the blame on late product on people, for expecting it on time, it's bullshit and going to piss people off. If you go into a situation with unrealistic expectations, knowing full well that the promises being made are impossible to keep, whose fault is it that you're PO'd? Yours, because the unrealistic expectations were formed by you in defiance of what you already knew was the truth. It's not bullshit, it's called being rational. Not at all. Previous lies do not make this one any different. If someone lies to you, they're lieing to you. If they lied to you previously that doesn't forgive the present lie. It may be an -expected- lie, but it's still not your fault if the other guy lies to you. Exactly, and nobody is saying the lie isn't wrong... we're saying the people who took leave of their senses and chose to believe that their release date announcement was honest and achievable instead of complete horse crap are idiots for believing the word of a known liar, and thus every bit as responsible for their disappointment as Palladium is. See the difference now? "Oh well they always lie. So it's on you" is stupid. No, it really isn't... that's why "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" is a saying. If you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a person has consistently told bald-faced, obvious lies to you about a particular subject for years and you choose to believe him anyway for no reason... yes, he's still lying, and that still makes him an asshole, but the only person you can blame for feeling let down when the lie is revealed to be a lie is YOU for being the kind of massive idiot that would spontaneously believe the word of a known liar. They're the one's telling the lie. It's their 'fault' every time they lie. Not the customers. To tell customers to ASSUME the company is lieing is a moronic defense. See? You're still trying to characterize this as a "defense" of Palladium... and that right there is fundamentally invalidating your argument. Nobody here is saying Palladium should be excused for delivering late, but we ARE saying that you should stop acting like this is something fucking unprecedented. You took a risk and you got burned, if you didn't understand the risk you shouldn't have backed the game. None of these people are going to walk up to Kevin at a convention and go "Don't worry Kev. I've got your back. I told your customers they're fucking morons for actually believing you! We all know you lie through your teeth! It's on those idiots if they actually believed you! Ha!! They must have suffered a blow to the head to think what YOU told them straight up, could ever be true! Gimme a fist bump, right!" Can you imagine? I'm going to do this now. Seriously. His face would be priceless. Still, realistically, we'd just be telling him a more reasonable version of what the other backers are... that it's NOT acceptable to deliver late, or deliver a shit product. We just don't kid ourselves and pretend this is anything other than the status motherfucking quo. We also temper our outrage a little with the knowledge of things like the marked tendency of Kickstarters which exceed their goals to run behind schedule due to the extra commitments required. Realism vs. amateur dramatics. That's the thing. That is how some 'defend' palladium. By saying the customer is an idiot and should know he's being lied to, as Palladium lies ______SO MUCH______ that if you DON'T Know you're being lied to, you're an idiot that should have done more research. So... in your very strange world view, you defend a company by telling people it's run by fuckwits? Man, what color is the sky in your world? And yes, if you don't do your research before you invest in a company, you ARE an idiot... unless you get a huge RoI, then you're just a lucky bastard. It's a transferal of blame, from the liar, to the one being lied to, as if some how it's the person being lied to's fault, for expecting them to tell the truth. It's still the liar, lieing. No, this tedious exercise of yours is a transferal of blame from the idiot who's upset that he got burned after making a stupid decision to the person telling them they should have exercised a little common sense. If you put your hand on a running stovetop and get burned, is it the stove top's fault? No. Everybody knows that the stove is hot when it's on. Is it my fault for telling you you were an idiot to put your hand on the stovetop? No. I just pointed out that you did a dumb thing and, as a grown man, you should have known better than to do something so blindingly stupid. It is? Wow... It's the person's fault he's lied to and he has no right to be pissed? Pretty weird world you live in Mike. If you make a conscious decision to trust someone you KNOW BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT is untrustworthy, you have very little right to claim you're a victim when it bites you in the arse. You can still be upset, but nobody is going to feel sorry for you because you did a very stupid thing. Especially if you try to act as though it wasn't the most obvious outcome in the world. No. I'm saying THEY are the one's that lied. I didn't make them lie. It's not my fault they lied. It was a choice they made. Yes, and we're saying that you made a choice to believe someone you knew was lying to you... which makes you an idiot, and robs your complaints about being lied to of much of their validity. You're STILL Missing the point. It wasn't that most of us believed them when they lied. We knew they were lies from the start. How bad and or deep of a lie was in debate, but it wasn't that we were ignorant. The point is, ---Palladium Lied--- and continued to lie for over a year. We knew they were lies, they took our money with promises offered forth. It wasn't that we bought into the lie. We saw it for what it is. It's offencive -anyway-. To take money and lie to your customers is offensive every time you do it. Even if they know before hand they're being lied to, to some extent. The person/company doing the lieing is still guilty. It's not my fault they lied. When they put out release dates, they're running jokes now. It's not 'will they be late' but 'how late will they be'. You're still laboring under the impression that people are surprised, or shocked or ignorant as to palladium's history. Most are not. They are mad, inspite of the history, because of the lies. The continued lies, the expected lies and the constant lies. But again you miss the point. It's not about thinking that Palladium is suddenly going to tell the truth after a history of lieing. It's about holding them responsable for lieing every time they do, and not giving them a pass because they've lied in the past. But the problem here is that you don't even know what the division of actual responsibility is, or who's responsible for the delays. You're ASSUMING this is all Palladium's fault. In this, you seem to be specifically addressing the Robotech thing, I'll do so here as well. It's Palladiums fault even if it's other people under them. Palladium ran the project. The kickstarter wasn't "A Harmony Gold/Palladium/NinjaDivision/Some unnamed Chinese company" Kickstarter. It was a Palladium Kickstarter. Palladium IS running the show. Before hand they actually childed people (Me in specific) Who worried/warned that the Robotech thing would take time from BOOKS which was what I (and others) held interest in, from our Roleplaying Book company. You know "Palladium Books". They said straight up we didn't know what we were talking about and it would take little to no time, as they were subcontracting out the work. Palladium is still the company producing and profiting from the work. ND is a subcontractor. The mystery (Apperently shitty) Company in China is a subcontractor. Palladim IS the one running it, thus when their workers screw up, it's still on them. You're ASSUMING Palladium was leading every aspect of the game's development. No. That's simply the way it is. They're not 'Partners' with anyone. They're running the project. Their name is on it. The rest work for them. If ND sucks so fucking bad it's on Palladium to fire them and get people who don't. It's still Palladium's Kickstarter and Palladium's Product. Not ND's. You even ASSUMED that the schedule wouldn't slip as the result of the Kickstarter exceeding its goals. No no. I didn't assume that at all. I assumed the opposite. lol As pointed out, palladium has a history. I'm not even sure 'assumption' of slipped scheulde is accurate. i KNEW that thing wasn't coming out on time and it had nothing to do with kickstarter and everything to do with Palladium. You've done a lot of assuming... it might be time to consider if you're in possession of enough of the facts to be assigning blame. I didn't assume anything you're claiming I did. It's a Palladium product. Their responsibility. Thus if it fucks up. Their fault. Period. One can try and throw other people under the bus if they want. Doesn't matter. Palladium Product. Palladium Kickstarter. Palladium's fault. If nothing else, if they hired people that suck, (Ninja Division) Then it's their fault for not doing THEIR research. For the record I'm not saying ND sucks. I'm saying if that's the reasoning, it's still Palladium's fault. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on May 7, 2014 5:13:44 GMT
It all boils down to these two points:
1) People put money into a Palladium Books kickstarter. Not a Ninja Division one. Not a Harmony Gold one. Not a chinese sweatshop one. Palladium Books. That means that the company responsible is Palladium Books. The company that has to answer to people is Palladium Books. Regardless of who wants to point fingers where, the burning paper bag full of dog crap is on Palladium's doorstep. And no matter how much they may cry about it, they're the ones who are going to have to clean it up.
2) By now, Palladium's reputation is established. PB (and Kevin, in particular) lied. Period. I'm sure he wanted what he said to be true. But, everyone else knew he was full of crap. Do we hold him responsible for the fact that he lied? Yes. Do feel pity for someone who believed a known liar? No, I don't. Believing what Kevin said was foolish. That doesn't mean I don't hold him RESPONSIBLE for his lies- just that people should have known better.
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Post by MacrossMike on May 7, 2014 14:51:41 GMT
1) People put money into a Palladium Books kickstarter. Not a Ninja Division one. Not a Harmony Gold one. Not a chinese sweatshop one. Palladium Books. That means that the company responsible is Palladium Books. The company that has to answer to people is Palladium Books. Now, that's an interesting dichotomy in reality... having actually created the Kickstarter makes Palladium Books ultimately responsible for all interaction with, and feedback from, the backers. It means they're responsible for making sure the backers get the quantity and type of all the goodies they were promised. Though, in a cruel twist of fate, the things everyone is ripping into them over are aspects of the project's development that were not done in-house, and that they therefore have almost no actual input into. They're essentially screwed coming and going by their overconfidence in their own abilities and their misguided belief in a dead franchise. You do it to yourself - you do - and that's what really hurts. 2) By now, Palladium's reputation is established. PB (and Kevin, in particular) lied. Period. I'm sure he wanted what he said to be true. But, everyone else knew he was full of crap. Do we hold him responsible for the fact that he lied? Yes. Do feel pity for someone who believed a known liar? No, I don't. Believing what Kevin said was foolish. That doesn't mean I don't hold him RESPONSIBLE for his lies- just that people should have known better. Bingo. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on May 7, 2014 21:11:05 GMT
1) People put money into a Palladium Books kickstarter. Not a Ninja Division one. Not a Harmony Gold one. Not a chinese sweatshop one. Palladium Books. That means that the company responsible is Palladium Books. The company that has to answer to people is Palladium Books. Now, that's an interesting dichotomy in reality... having actually created the Kickstarter makes Palladium Books ultimately responsible for all interaction with, and feedback from, the backers. It means they're responsible for making sure the backers get the quantity and type of all the goodies they were promised. Though, in a cruel twist of fate, the things everyone is ripping into them over are aspects of the project's development that were not done in-house, and that they therefore have almost no actual input into. They're essentially screwed coming and going by their overconfidence in their own abilities and their misguided belief in a dead franchise. You do it to yourself - you do - and that's what really hurts. Well, think about it- if you buy a Mr. Coffee coffee pot, and the coffee pot is falling apart by the time it gets out of the package, do you call the chinese sweatshop to complain, or Mr.Coffee? You call Mr. Coffee, because it's their name on the box. It's THEIR product you bought. |
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Post by MacrossMike on May 7, 2014 22:18:15 GMT
Well, think about it- if you buy a Mr. Coffee coffee pot, and the coffee pot is falling apart by the time it gets out of the package, do you call the chinese sweatshop to complain, or Mr.Coffee? You call Mr. Coffee, because it's their name on the box. It's THEIR product you bought. You've got a good analogy, but you've mis-assigned the players. Mr. Coffee designed that coffee pot, Palladium didn't design this game... Ninja Division did. Palladium's job is the same as that of the retailer who you buy the busted coffee pot from... their job is to put a bow on someone else's garbage and hope the stink isn't noticed until after its return period is over. Ripping into Palladium for Ninja Division having done a crap job with the minis is like ripping into your grocery store over the quality of the Mr. Coffee coffee pot you bought there. They made it available to you, but ultimately all they really did was distribute the product someone else designed. |
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 7, 2014 23:32:28 GMT
No no no no no no no. That's bullshit. Palladium DID design the game/Coffeepot. Ninja Division is the one designated to bring that design to the box, I.E. Manufacture it. They're the one's that make the parts. You're acting like Palladium's just a reseller. That's not true.
Palladium is the company that's producing the product. I.E. Palladium would be the Mr Coffee company. Not the Walmart you bought it at.
You're throwing blame anywhere but on Palladium. Their name is on the product they developed it, they're getting paid for it. It was PALLADIUM That chose their subcontractor (Ninja Division) At the end of the day, it's Palladium's baby. ND might give palladium shit product, but it's on Palladium to go 'No this is crap. We're not selling crap. Do it right or we're getting a new subcontractor and sueing you for every dime you have" Just as it's Palladium that -hired- ND to do the subcontracted work. (Who seem to have promptly sent the work overseas. Well. Not so prompt, but yeah.)
Even if ND's part sucks, it's Still palladium's problem. Why? Because Palladium is the one that took in the 1.4 million dollars to get product out. Not Ninja Division. Ninja Division is just the subcontractor. Subcontractor's come and go. The parent company is still Palladium and they make the money. If ND can't do what they said they would, then Palladium needs to fire them and get someone better.
The problem here is, Palladium seems to be so grossly grossly ignorant into even what's good/bad, or acceptable/trash, that they're taking crap and calling it great, simply because ND is telling them so.
I'm not a mini's guy. Being perfectly honest, pretty much all mini's look more or less like crap to me. There are mini's guys out there. Loads of them that spend hundreds and thousands on the things, and -they- think these are crap and have severe design flaws and what not. They're not ignorant. They've put forth their concerns and complaints and have been hand waved off or ignored.
This thing is DOA. So many problems. So many complaints. Everything seen indicates it's crap on a cracker. Split release, (Releases that are going to take weeks on end if not months just to ship) etc etc ad infin. Yeah this will make money but all the effort/time/man hours/complaints into it.... You'll get this.. eventually. The next product will likely get made, if for nothing else, theyr'e already invested.
Don't expect more than two, MAAAAYBE Three 'expansions' though. I'd be surprised if they ended up with two, but we don't know what the contracts say behind the scenes. If I were giving a prediction. "Core set" and what ever the first 'Next' set is, that'll be all that makes it.
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Post by MacrossMike on May 8, 2014 1:34:13 GMT
No no no no no no no. That's bullshit. Palladium DID design the game/Coffeepot. Putting aside your interesting but ultimately fallacious fantasy, Palladium did not design this game. Palladium was very upfront about that fact. They specifically sought out and partnered with a miniatures studio because that shit is outside their skill set. What is the product really? The miniatures. Palladium Books's role in this is to package those miniatures both literally and figuratively. They didn't design the miniatures, and they didn't manufacture them. They're just putting a bow on Ninja Division's turd and hoping you won't notice the smell. It makes no goddamn sense to blame Palladium for the quality of the miniatures when they had NO role in their design, all they did was to pick a studio to partner with to make the minis and choose the factory that'll mass produce the finished sprues. (Though we don't know that the choice of factory was entirely theirs either). If you took a moment to examine your complaints from a rational standpoint rather than a hysterical one, you might notice you're blaming the wrong guys for certain things. I realize it's in vogue to blame Palladium for everything short of global warming, and they've certainly done plenty to deserve a good yelling-at, but at least do them the courtesy of only chewing them out for shit that's actually their fault, like a schedule that's composed entirely of lies and flim-flam, an inferior quality rulebook, and backer relations that would have to improve a lot before they could be called abysmal. It's not fair to blame them for the shit quality of miniatures that weren't designed by them. |
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Anybody
May 8, 2014 2:35:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by joshuagoliath on May 8, 2014 2:35:38 GMT
No no no no no no no. That's bullshit. Palladium DID design the game/Coffeepot. Putting aside your interesting but ultimately fallacious fantasy, Palladium did not design this game. Palladium was very upfront about that fact. They specifically sought out and partnered with a miniatures studio because that shit is outside their skill set. What is the product really? The miniatures. Palladium Books's role in this is to package those miniatures both literally and figuratively. They didn't design the miniatures, and they didn't manufacture them. They're just putting a bow on Ninja Division's turd and hoping you won't notice the smell. It makes no goddamn sense to blame Palladium for the quality of the miniatures when they had NO role in their design, all they did was to pick a studio to partner with to make the minis and choose the factory that'll mass produce the finished sprues. (Though we don't know that the choice of factory was entirely theirs either). If you took a moment to examine your complaints from a rational standpoint rather than a hysterical one, you might notice you're blaming the wrong guys for certain things. I realize it's in vogue to blame Palladium for everything short of global warming, and they've certainly done plenty to deserve a good yelling-at, but at least do them the courtesy of only chewing them out for shit that's actually their fault, like a schedule that's composed entirely of lies and flim-flam, an inferior quality rulebook, and backer relations that would have to improve a lot before they could be called abysmal. It's not fair to blame them for the shit quality of miniatures that weren't designed by them. Did backers make a deal with ND or a Chinese sweatshop or PB? Answer is, PB. The turd belongs to PB. Its not a backers fault if PB did shut research about the company those to partner with. |
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Anybody
May 8, 2014 5:33:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by ninjabunny on May 8, 2014 5:33:48 GMT
Anybody ever have generic store bought brand food? You know like Kroger soda, or Walmart brand corn flakes? This is what RRT is to me.
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 8, 2014 5:54:30 GMT
No no no no no no no. That's bullshit. Palladium DID design the game/Coffeepot. Putting aside your interesting but ultimately fallacious fantasy, My "Fallacious fantasy"? Yeah, again. Fuck you Mike. You're not talking over anyone's head or being clever like you think you are. Palladium took the money. Their name is on the kickstarter. They're the ones producing the product. It's not a fantasy of any nature. So quit trying to talk down your nose and being an ass. Palladium did not design this game. Yes they did. They wrote the rules. They hired a subcontractor to make the mini's. They designed the damn game. Palladium was very upfront about that fact. They specifically sought out and partnered with a miniatures studio because that shit is outside their skill set. ---Production of miniatures----- Is not 'DESIGNING THE GAME'. They found a subcontractor (Not 'partner'. ND isn't getting half the money. ND's name isn't on the Kickstarter. Palladium Books is. By your logic, if the Mr Coffee company designed the Mr Coffee, and a subcontractor under contract to the company created a switch, they designed the coffee pot. No. They were told to make the coffee pot and the coffee pot needed a switch so they put together a coffee pot as per design spec and such and created a switch to go on it. They didn't Design the coffee pot. They made parts and put it together. What is the product really? The miniatures. The product is the complete game. Rules. Miniatures, all of it. They're not just selling miniatures with no rules. Nor is it being marketed that way. [quote source="/post/3701/thread" timestamp="1399512853" author=" MacrossMike" Palladium Books's role in this is to package those miniatures both literally and figuratively. They didn't design the miniatures, and they didn't manufacture them. They're just putting a bow on Ninja Division's turd and hoping you won't notice the smell. [/quote] Gods, you're so wrong it's frightening. Palladium is the company doing the project Mike. They are not just someone to package it. lol. They created the project. You're looking at it way way way wrong. ND was hired on as a subcontractor. Palladium came up with the project, they -then- looked around for a subcontractor to do the grunt work. They found ND (It's been pointed out that had Palladium done more research they may have looked longer for better) Palladium came to Ninja Division and went 'Hey, we're doing a game. We're going to need some robotech mini's made for it. You guys want some work?" ND went "Hurm... if the money is right. Let us check our schedules. Sure. We'll do it' Where in Palladium TOLD them what to make. "We need X, Y, and Z mini's. They need to be this tall. Here's 300 pictures of them." ND went "Wow... ok." and went to their computers and transferred the images. Rendered them in 3D (which has taken a great amount of time). They showed off the computer mock ups to Palladium, and pitched Manufacturers. Palladium approved or denied the mockups. Ninja Division went back and fixed what they were told to. At some point along the line either Palladium found, or ND suggested, the Chinese company. Who seem to be having a hell of a time making the molds. Palladium's projects. ND and the Chinese company are just guys hired by Palladium to do the work. Palladium is the company, it's Palladium's project. Just like McDonalds is the company you buy your burger from. The 16 year old zit riddeled guy working the grill is just the guy that puts together the product. McDonalds sold it to you. McDonalds is the company. It makes no goddamn sense to blame Palladium for the quality of the miniatures when they had NO role in their design, BULLSHIT. Palladium had to accept the design when ND brought it to them. Palladium didn't just throw stuff up in the air, and say "hey man. Whatever you think. We're paying you to do this, but we have no say in it." How stupid would that be??? Palladium had to approve of every single design. ND wasn't given carte blanche to just do what ever they wanted. More over, Palladium not only had a role, but had the ------RESPONSIBILITY--------- to make sure the stuff brought to them for their approval, was quality. Palladium is the head company. They're the ones that took in the money. THEY (Palladium) Are the ones going to be crucified if/when it goes wrong. all they did was to pick a studio to partner with to make the minis That's Palladium's responsibility as the one running the project/company. "All they did was pic the studio.." By that logic no employer is ever responsible for what it's company produces? All they do is hire their workers. Must be the workers fault. Not the company's fault. *Shakes head* and choose the factory that'll mass produce the finished sprues. (Though we don't know that the choice of factory was entirely theirs either). It's ULTIMATELY Palladium's choice. Again, they either sought out the factory themselves or took ND's word when ND said it was the one to use. Know what? Either way it's the same thing. Palladium had to sign off on it. It was Palladium's responsibility to make sure it was a good one. Not yours. Not mine. Not Santa's, nor the Easterbunny. Palladium's Responsibility. If you took a moment to examine your complaints from a rational standpoint rather than a hysterical one, I'm not hysterical. I disagree with you. There's a difference. you might notice you're blaming the wrong guys for certain things. No I'm blaming the right guys. You're trying to shoot blame off to others. Who's project was it? I realize it's in vogue to blame Palladium for everything short of global warming, I blame them for *Gasp* What they deserve blame and responsibility for. Nothing else. and they've certainly done plenty to deserve a good yelling-at, but at least do them the courtesy of only chewing them out for shit that's actually their fault, That's all I do chew them out for. I actually like Palladium's products (For the most part, I use their books. I've no wish nor want for their mini's. I don't do minis. And of mini's I've seen, the robotech ones seem sub par. I'm far from an expert, but when the experts bitch about them and I look at a picture. I see what they're bitching about. 30+ parts in a model the size of a quarter? Seams right down the front of all the large pieces? LOL They're crap. You guys are getting ripped off.) I give credit where credit is due. Good or bad. like a schedule that's composed entirely of lies and flim-flam, an inferior quality rulebook, and backer relations that would have to improve a lot before they could be called abysmal. It's not fair to blame them for the shit quality of miniatures that weren't designed by them. But it IS Mike. It's 100% fair to blame them for the quality of the miniatures. Know why? THEY ARE SELLING THEM. It's THEIR PROJECT. If the mini's are of shit quality, it's Palladium's responsibility to go "No. These are frakin' SHIT! Do um RIGHT" and if ND came back with more shit, it's Palladium's Responsibility to go 'No. These still suck. We want GOOD STUFF" and if ND comes back with Shit again, it's Palladium's Responsibility to go "Nope. We gave you three tries. You came back with Shit. You're FIRED. We're getting another company that can do it right" That's why it's fair to blame them. In your view, ND could have showed up with bricks of plastic and slapped them on the table and went "Here ya go. Carve your own" and by your logic Palladium would just shrug and go 'Hey, that's what they gave us. So it's what we're giving you. Not our fault!" Sit back and think about what you're saying. "It's not fair to blame them for the shit quality of the mini's that wern't designed by them" So if you buy a car, and the thing bursts into flame when you put the key in. It's not "Ford's" Fault that they gave you a shit product? They built the car. They sold you the car. They got your money for selling the car. Is it the factory's fault? Or the Company's? Who you going to sue? Not the Factory. You're going to sue the car company. If you buy a computer from... Dell (I know. I wouldn't but that's not the point) And you order it online. Dell mails you a computer, and you turn it on and it explodes into flame. Do you blame the kid working in china for half a penny a day that put together the circuit board? Or do you blame Dell who made and sold you the computer? You blame dell. You sue Dell. Why? Because it was Dell who sold you the computer. Not the 'parts of the computer' they sold you the entire thing. It was Dell who took your money. Dell who said "This computer will work like this and cost this much.". You don't go "Oh well that Chinese kid totally didn't know what he was doing. My computer is on fire and might burn down my house. It's not Dells fault!! You can't hold DELL Who sold me the computer, to blame for it being on fire". You are grossly missing the responsibility here. Yes. Ninja Division is the subcontractor producing crap. But it's the SUB-contractor. It's palladium's Responsibility to 1) Choose subcontractor's that can do the job. and 2) Only accept quality from those they employ to do so and 3) If the subcontractor's can't do it, to shit-can them and find one's that can. |
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Post by MacrossMike on May 8, 2014 14:35:34 GMT
Did backers make a deal with ND or a Chinese sweatshop or PB? Answer is, PB. The turd belongs to PB. Its not a backers fault if PB did shut research about the company those to partner with. What is this fixation with which company created the Kickstarter page? The Kickstarter itself made no secret of the fact that this is a joint venture between Palladium Books and Ninja Division, which itself is a joint venture between two miniatures companies. The backers didn't "make a deal" with anybody. Legally, y'all are DONORS. You gave money to a joint venture via the group handling public relations in return for the promise of future non-monetary rewards. Why are these simple facts so difficult for so many to understand? I'm not even going to bother getting into Sci-Fi's paranoid shrilling... good fucking god that's SAD. I know the backers are upset about the quality of the game, but they're not going to be taken seriously if they're intent on blaming the distributor for the studio's fuck-ups. If this were a matter of defective (say, bubbled) castings being shipped to customers it'd be one thing, but all Palladium can do in this instance is convey complaints to Ninja Division and, if budget permits, try to insist they address the issues as time permits. |
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Post by kryptt on May 8, 2014 17:34:45 GMT
Actually the way Kevin has run this ks, it's more like how Mike describes it. Kevin needs to get on the ball and call nd on their shit. Mike PB did design the game. Carmen is one of the writers for the game so PB can force feed us their clunky HtH rules and such. So sci fi is right. PB did design the game with other writers, but with PB overseeing it. So it's a PB product.
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Post by Sci-Fi on May 8, 2014 20:51:07 GMT
Did backers make a deal with ND or a Chinese sweatshop or PB? Answer is, PB. The turd belongs to PB. Its not a backers fault if PB did shut research about the company those to partner with. What is this fixation with which company created the Kickstarter page? The Kickstarter itself made no secret of the fact that this is a joint venture between Palladium Books and Ninja Division, which itself is a joint venture between two miniatures companies. The backers didn't "make a deal" with anybody. Legally, y'all are DONORS. You gave money to a joint venture via the group handling public relations in return for the promise of future non-monetary rewards. Why are these simple facts so difficult for so many to understand? I'm not even going to bother getting into Sci-Fi's paranoid shrilling... good fucking god that's SAD. I know the backers are upset about the quality of the game, but they're not going to be taken seriously if they're intent on blaming the distributor for the studio's fuck-ups. If this were a matter of defective (say, bubbled) castings being shipped to customers it'd be one thing, but all Palladium can do in this instance is convey complaints to Ninja Division and, if budget permits, try to insist they address the issues as time permits. lol You're not going to bother because you know I'm right. You can't refute it because you're grossly wrong. So you're just going to wave your hands and turn up your nose as if it's beneath you to try. Palladium is the company that's producing the product. ND is a subcontractor. Just the same as the people that make the 'paper' and the 'ink' for Palladium's books aren't to be blamed if you get a crappy book. Palladium is, and it's palladium's responsibility to replace it. You're wrong Mike. What's worse is you know you're wrong. You KNOW it. You're just refusing to admit it now. So, you're just trolling. |
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Anybody
May 8, 2014 22:43:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by raiden on May 8, 2014 22:43:58 GMT
Not to sound alarmist, or "shrill", as <edit>Mike has labelled most people, but I did notice that the Ninja Division homepage doesn't actually have a listing at all in regards to RRT, and a check on their Facebook page shows that they haven't said anything about RRT since early April.
That really doesn't look good at all, at least to me, a shrill, conspiracy theorist potential customer.
There is no reason to be insulting as you were. We are adults here, discuss things like it and if you feel it has been done to you the report function is there to be used
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Post by MacrossMike on May 8, 2014 23:09:08 GMT
lol You're not going to bother because you know I'm right. You can't refute it because you're grossly wrong. So you're just going to wave your hands and turn up your nose as if it's beneath you to try. Alas, such is not the case. I've pointed out the holes in your logic several times already, but you're just not willing to listen. You're upset about the way things have turned out with the Kickstarter and I can certainly understand. The problem is you're in such an unseemly rush to villify Palladium for things that aren't (provably) their fault. If you want to blame people for something and expect them to make it right, you have to be able to prove that the wrong is emphatically their doing. That is the fundamental flaw your reasoning... you're saying it's all Palladium's fault that the quality of the miniatures is poor, but Palladium Books didn't create the miniatures. You're also saying that Ninja Division is an employee of Palladium Books, when what we've been told is that Palladium Books are Ninja Division are partners in this mutual endeavor, and that Palladium Books's only role in the miniatures (besides approvals) is the packaging and shipment of same. You continue to assert that this is all Palladium's doing in defiance of what everyone actually involved in this has said. I realize you're just upset because you feel you're getting hosed by Palladium in the same way they always hose their customers, but they haven't reached the level of Snidely Whiplash mustache-twirling villainy the more upset backers are trying to assign to them. You're wrong Mike. What's worse is you know you're wrong. You KNOW it. You're just refusing to admit it now. So, you're just trolling. Just because you don't like the truths I tell you does not make them lies... it simply makes them uncomfortable truths. Not to sound alarmist, or "shrill", as JerkassMike has labelled most people, but I did notice that the Ninja Division homepage doesn't actually have a listing at all in regards to RRT, and a check on their Facebook page shows that they haven't said anything about RRT since early April. That really doesn't look good at all, at least to me, a shrill, conspiracy theorist potential customer. Now, at the risk of pointing out what many Robotech fans know already, this is not actually cause for alarm... yet. Harmony Gold's management is well-known for its tendency to obsessively restrict and police licensees and press releases regarding new Robotech releases... to the worrying extent that Harmony Gold's own official website for the franchise was usually the last place that all Robotech news was posted. It would not be out of character for Harmony Gold to have stipulated in the licensing agreement extensions that made the Robotech RPG Tactics game possible that any significant press releases would either have to go through the approvals at Harmony Gold before being published. It may also be that Ninja Division delegated responsibility for press releases and so on to Palladium Books after the announcement of the game's development, since Palladium Books is the designated point of contact for backers, and that they're not posting news about that project because it's not their responsibility. |
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Post by Jaymz on May 8, 2014 23:35:53 GMT
I'll point as Raiden has that ND is definitely looking like it's distancing itself from this project. Add to the fact Palladium threw them under a bus to which I am willing to bet they are NOT happy about and Kevin's apparent lack of any clue as to the reality of this project's actual position and opinion of a decent number of backers I am satisfied with thinking the blame lies very much on Palladium's shoulders and no one else's.
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Post by joshuagoliath on May 9, 2014 5:02:44 GMT
It may also be that Ninja Division delegated responsibility for press releases and so on to Palladium Books after the announcement of the game's development, If they're partners, than ND wouldn't delegate anything. Delegation is from a senior position. MacrossMike Avatar May 8, 2014 16:09:08 GMT -7 MacrossMike said: since Palladium Books is the designated point of contact for backers, and that they're not posting news about that project because it's not their responsibility. So, you're making our point that PB is the designated point of contact for backers... so, yes, that's who backers should be upset with. They dealt with PB. PB told people how awesome and amazing it was going to be. PB told people "this is when". PB said "we're doing this for YOU, because YOU want Robotech stuff!". It's PB that people can yell at. Honestly, Kevin needs to sit down for a full work day, and do NOTHING but listen to people to yell and scream at him over this. Maybe hearing how &^%$ed up it is from a few dozen people will help wake him up. And let's be honest, it's not like he generally gets anything done anyways. |
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Post by MacrossMike on May 9, 2014 14:12:43 GMT
If they're partners, than ND wouldn't delegate anything. Delegation is from a senior position. That's actually an unpleasant connotation attached to the word in common use, not part of its literal definition. To delegate a task to someone literally only means to authorize them to represent you. If Ninja Division has authorized Palladium Books to represent them to the backers, they have delegated the task of public relations to Palladium Books. So, you're making our point that PB is the designated point of contact for backers... so, yes, that's who backers should be upset with. Not really, no... unless you're the sort of misguided soul who verbally abuses the phone support person when your computer breaks down. Being the designated point of contact for the backers means only that Palladium Books is responsible for communicating with the backers, for the purposes of news and feedback. Their responsibilities in that respect are to put out whatever news on the project they've been authorized to release, and collect customer feedback for direction to the appropriate responsible parties. They dealt with PB. PB told people how awesome and amazing it was going to be. PB told people "this is when". PB said "we're doing this for YOU, because YOU want Robotech stuff!". It's PB that people can yell at. Palladium always does that though... and it's always a lie. As I have said many times before, there's nothing unreasonable about being pissed off over the wildly inaccurate release timeline and the continual pushing-back of the release deadline due to "circumstances". Much of that IS Palladium's fault, so you absolutely have a sound reason for being upset with them. Not all of it can be definitively attributed to Palladium, however, so you should at least moderate your anger. Some of the perceived delays may be the result of failures of communication between Palladium and Ninja Division (e.g. Kevin may have misunderstood a progress report from Ninja Division and believed the game to be further along than it was), and there's always that Kickstarter-related holdup from projects that suddenly expand in scope due to the scale of the donations and the added logistical strains imposed by increased volumes of pre-release production. Issues with the miniatures... that's Ninja Division's problem, and all Palladium can do there is pass the word along. Honestly, Kevin needs to sit down for a full work day, and do NOTHING but listen to people to yell and scream at him over this. Maybe hearing how &^%$ed up it is from a few dozen people will help wake him up. And let's be honest, it's not like he generally gets anything done anyways. While the idea of Kevin working a full day is already an alien concept, I can't imagine that doing nothing but listening to people screaming and yelling at him about it would achieve anything. Odds are he'd tune them out fairly quickly, or the vitriolic tone of the day might leave leave him with the impression that these are the "unreasonable" vocal minority. I think it would achieve a lot more if someone sat down with him and said, in a very calm and reasoned manner, "Kevin, your people have fucked this up royally. This is what needs to change to make this right." |
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