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Post by damianmagecraft on Dec 18, 2013 18:17:28 GMT
This subject comes up quite a bit in Rifts discussions (usually to show how price X of item Y is impossible).
My question is this...
Just how important is it that the game itself address the economics?
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Post by Jaymz on Dec 18, 2013 18:29:14 GMT
I suppose that has more to do with how "realistic" one wants a game to be.
For instance while I question how the hell the CS could possibly have the military they do, that's as far as it goes for me as I really don;t care about it that much.
In a gritty N&SS game....I might want better explained economics of things.
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Post by ninjabunny on Dec 18, 2013 19:37:30 GMT
Economics in a fictional setting like rifts is pointless. Those that argue econmic factors in rifts really just want to argue about something that really can't be quntified.
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Post by Sci-Fi on Dec 18, 2013 19:38:20 GMT
It matters when it comes to over all immersion in the game. Rifts for example has stuff like the Eclip Recharging rates that are astronomical and like 50 credits for one MRE.... so it shows inflation in very weird ways. That being said, Energy weapons send damage down range to the tune of tank shells, which ARE astronomically expensive.. but then you still have like 50 credits for an MRE or 2,000,000 for a robot cat. I mean WTF??
So in general I'll 'fix' prices that I find weird.
Also in general... it's not THAT big a deal. We use rounded numbers and stuff for ease of game play and more expedient game play. I don't want to be an accountant.
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 19, 2013 0:25:04 GMT
This subject comes up quite a bit in Rifts discussions (usually to show how price X of item Y is impossible). My question is this... Just how important is it that the game itself address the economics? Not very, IMO... unless it's absolutely vital to the story you want to tell that the players have to be able to afford extremely expensive items X, Y, and Z, or are living on cash reserves while on the run or something. I don't think any game I've ever run has involved economics in any way, except for one instance where a player got in trouble for losing an extremely expensive piece of military hardware in combat and got sent up on disciplinary action for it. |
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Post by yilbber on Jan 9, 2014 4:20:01 GMT
Mystic China has fun tables that could be used for currency shifts in Rifts, but the currency situation only matters if you are going to travel everywhere, and you're likely going to end up Bartering since why would Alien X think that armor you are wearing is worth more.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 9, 2014 5:00:44 GMT
Ironically, when I'm a PLAYER, I find economics important. As a GM, I find it annoying (but semi-important)
But then, as a player, I'm that guy who barters whenever possible, saving my cash for when I have no choice but to spend it. I'd rather do a "favor", or trade that shiny bauble (is it MY fault if they assume it's magical?) for what I want(especially the favor- that usually means an adventure that will net me EXP and more loot!).
Also, it's nice (as a player) to know what the general economics are like in an area. Why? Because then I know how I can destabilize it (or not).
As an example, in a 3.5 campaign (yes, I know, different system), I was using spells like fabricate for things the DM never expected (oh how he ended up hating me!!). And I could make MASS quantities. We were in a town where the local ruler owed us money, but was refusing to pay. So, I made massive quantities of local trade goods, and flooded the market. By the time anyone realized what was going on, I had destabilized their entire economy, and the ruler spent more trying to fix it than if he would have just paid us in the first place. And each time he started to get a handle on it, I flooded another trade good. By the time it was over, his own people hung him.
Economics can be VERY VERY important.
As a GM, it's annoying because you have to watch for stuff like that. At the same time, you can use it as a beautiful tool against (or for, if you're THAT GUY!) the PCs. Oh, they spent 10,000,000 in this little flyspeck of a village? Well, there's now so much gold floating around that it's devalued, and even a loaf of bread will cost you 100,000.
Oh, you brought 100,000 pounds of coal out of that mine you cleared? Well, it WAS worth about 2 gold (credits) a pound. With that much of it, we'll give you 2 gold (credits) per 10 pounds. You don't like that price? Have fun hauling all that coal around!!
Another horrible way to use economics against PCs- taxes. Tolls. "We're assessing you at about 100,000 value. The toll will be 100 to enter the city". And then when they leave.. "We see you've increased to about 1,000,000 value. That will be 900 tax to cover the increase in value." or "We're assessing you at 50,000. Since you left 50,000 worth of goods here, we're charging you 100g to help stabilize our local economy from the influx of goods that you're leaving behind".
Sales tax. PCs HATE that one. First time I pulled that out, I thought the PC was about to crap himself. He'd been saving for 5 levels. Finally got the 1,000,000 gold to pay the alchemist for his custom made item. He shows up, smiling and happy. And then the Alchemist informs him that the total is 1,100,000. "But, you told me it's only 1 million!". "It is only one million. There's a 10 percent sales tax to all non-residents"
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Post by yilbber on Jan 9, 2014 16:56:54 GMT
**ticks that one to superdickery**
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 9, 2014 18:19:55 GMT
You can call it that. Or, you can call it keeping check on how much free wealth is flowing around the game. I keep an eye on how much money my PCs get, and how much they spend. I do NOT like to suddenly have it dropped on me "I start checking out how much it would cost to hire X amount of mercenaries".. "about 750K"... "Cool. So, I hire them. You know that dungeon we couldn't get through? We're going back"
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Post by yilbber on Jan 9, 2014 22:17:20 GMT
lol.. Perfectly Legit Strategy for a battle Ax GM campaign. "What? death traps? Fill the hole till that trap can no longer fire"..
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 9, 2014 23:34:57 GMT
Never had a player really complain about how I run games. And the above tactics have, on multiple occasions, spawned nice long adventures as the PCs look for ways to avoid taxes.
And the reason I worry about stuff like all that is that I was one of those players. I'm the guy that spent millions for a custom drug that would affect vamps, but not rabbits. Doped dozens of rabbits, carried them into Gersidi to offer any vamps as a bribe. And then killed them while they were doped.
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Post by writersblock on Feb 8, 2014 5:00:59 GMT
Unless it has something to do with the adventure, or is something critical with how the players are using their characters funds, I generally am pretty fast and lose with cash and economics.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Feb 8, 2014 6:39:28 GMT
Some of us believe the economics of the settings, to various degrees of course.
It has always been important to me for a few reasons:
1 Money is one of the reasons PCs adventure
2 money makes the world go round. It drives everything from daily activity in slums to government research abilities.
3 its a great springboard for adventures. Sure, you WANT to buy that weapon that is way out of your pricerange,but you can negotiate a favor for a cheaper price.
4 why do you think all those corporations and businesses exist, and make weapons and armor and vehicles and things that go BOOM? Money.
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Post by damianmagecraft on Feb 8, 2014 6:56:26 GMT
While this conversation is entertaining...
It is missing the point of my question.
How important is it that the Game/setting material address this rather than leaving it to each individual group to suss out?
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Post by joshuagoliath on Feb 8, 2014 8:28:13 GMT
While this conversation is entertaining... It is missing the point of my question. How important is it that the Game/setting material address this rather than leaving it to each individual group to suss out? Honestly, i think it is a bit of a mix. The game itself needs to address how readily money is, what its actual VALUE is, etc. It also helps draw the lline between the wealthy locations and the slums. A guy with 50k credits might be filthy rich in the burbs, but if he got into the upper levels of Chi-town, hes not that wealthy. |
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Post by writersblock on May 2, 2014 23:43:23 GMT
Unless the application of currency, and its overall possession, is VASTLY different than in our own world, I do not see any real reason to detail it.
Point out the relative value of a credit, copper piece, whatever to modern dollars and that sort of stuff.
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Post by MacrossMike on May 3, 2014 0:13:57 GMT
Unless the application of currency, and its overall possession, is VASTLY different than in our own world, I do not see any real reason to detail it. Point out the relative value of a credit, copper piece, whatever to modern dollars and that sort of stuff. Well, I'd say not quite that broadly... it should be given at least a vague explanation if the currency's denominations, usage, etc. are rather different from what the players are used to. For example, currency systems that don't have fractional amounts in them. (That lack of a decimal point in currencies like the Japanese Yen throws people sometimes... because we're not used to seeing that many zeroes.) I've had to give the idea some consideration in my Macross pseudo-homebrew now that official sources have finally put some information on currency and relative value out there. |
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Post by kanorgreymane on May 18, 2014 20:42:25 GMT
I agree that it varies according to the needs of the game. If your PCs are all out in the wilderness or part of the CS frontline vs Tolkeen, it's not going ot matter mcuh at all. If you're runninga campaing based in Chi-town, the burbs or another city and your characters are interesetd in actually Rp ing the living daylights out the buying of equipment then, of course, it matters. That's why Kevin put in the conversion rates for gold, silver, etc. to credits so a PALLADIUm character just rifted in from the Norrthern Wililderness wiht a few hundred gold can actually, eventually, buy new gear insted of the Gm just handwaviuming it and saying: "You arrive at Merc town and are presented w/ a laser pistol (Chara: WTF is a laser pistol and why do I need one?) and some Plasticman armor." Enjoy!" versus, "You arrive, after several days of harrowing travel, at a bustling city. The sign (written in several Palladium lagnuages) reads "Welcome to Merc-town!" "As you head inside you a confronted with sights of auotmatons walking around and strange horseless carriages roving to and fro among the streets, your guide of these past several days has informed you that at this 'Merc-town' you may purchase better weapons and equipment but warns you that he process amy be quite high, depending upon wether you buy from a reputable dealer or the local Black Market dealer (buyer beware on THAT one) and you'll only be able to afford a basic weapon, some armor and maybe a horse (horses apparently being cheaper here) or maybe some room and some food depending on where you go."  |
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