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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 28, 2013 4:24:11 GMT
OK, I admit, I only read parts of the thread.. that being said-
It *IS* an issue here in the States. But, not so much with manga & anime. Instead, our culture is doing it to the real thing. Go look up the fight over Victoria Secret's "Pink" line, and the "pretty young things" debate. Since when do 12 and 13 year olds need panties that say "kiss me" on them? Or have the cherries on them.
Since when do we need products on shelves aimed at 12 year old girls that are skimpier than what models wear in photo shoots for mens magazines?
At least in Japan it's mostly limited to Anime and Manga...
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Post by yilbber on Dec 28, 2013 19:55:52 GMT
yep american perversion is far worse, We sexualize 3 year olds.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 30, 2013 3:41:02 GMT
Sadly yes, some do. Anyone that tries that with MY three year old will die, unless the cops get there fast enough (unlikely, unless they were already there)
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 31, 2013 1:35:35 GMT
Sadly yes, some do. Anyone that tries that with MY three year old will die, unless the cops get there fast enough (unlikely, unless they were already there) Every time I see one of those preteen beauty pageants covered on the news, I feel like child protective services should be getting very heavily involved in those families lives. 's the one time I think I've ever found myself actually nauseous over a news article, when I saw the news talking about some little girl whose mom sent her to one of those pageants dressed to match the prostitute outfit Julia Roberts' character wore in Pretty Woman. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 31, 2013 2:57:48 GMT
What, THAT churned your stomach? Not the seven year olds talking about how they need plastic surgery, or botox?
Seriously, the ENTIRE children's pageant circus needs to be re-examined, and very probably shut down. And a LOT of the parents need to be sent to prison, psychotherapy, or both.
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 31, 2013 3:00:18 GMT
What, THAT churned your stomach? Not the seven year olds talking about how they need plastic surgery, or botox? Seriously, the ENTIRE children's pageant circus needs to be re-examined, and very probably shut down. And a LOT of the parents need to be sent to prison, psychotherapy, or both. Can't say I've ever seen that... I don't often watch the TV news, and reality TV is right out. I'll second that emotion regarding the whole children's pageant mess... that is some horrifying stuff, on a variety of levels. I've seen a few parents on the news who, had I the authority, would be spending some quality time in a maximum security prison for acting more like pimps than proper family. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 31, 2013 3:05:52 GMT
I've seen a few parents on the news who, had I the authority, would be spending some quality time in a maximum security prison for acting more like pimps than proper family. You're nicer than me. I think some of those parents need to be six feet under for what they do to their children. Ironically, I have not ever heard of a single pageant DAD who allows that stuff. It's always the mothers. Of course, these are the same mothers that when their kid ends up on 16 & Pregnant are screaming "Where did I go wrong?!" |
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Post by MacrossMike on Dec 31, 2013 3:27:08 GMT
I've seen a few parents on the news who, had I the authority, would be spending some quality time in a maximum security prison for acting more like pimps than proper family. You're nicer than me. I think some of those parents need to be six feet under for what they do to their children. Ironically, I have not ever heard of a single pageant DAD who allows that stuff. It's always the mothers. Of course, these are the same mothers that when their kid ends up on 16 & Pregnant are screaming "Where did I go wrong?!" I'm sure, statistically speaking, there's at least ONE out there who's somehow escaped being publicized... probably intensely grateful for it too, the skeevy bastard. I'm not sure Japan gets a total pass on that front... they might not do the child pageant thing, but there was that one really heavily publicized idol/model who got put into all kinds of more adult roles because she looked about six years older than she was. (Google reliably informs me her name is Irie Saaya.) They at least kept her out of anything overtly mature until she turned 18 though. 's still kind of creepy to have photobooks of a preteen girl in circulation tho. |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Dec 31, 2013 4:14:47 GMT
I'm sure, statistically speaking, there's at least ONE out there who's somehow escaped being publicized... probably intensely grateful for it too, the skeevy bastard. I'm not sure Japan gets a total pass on that front... they might not do the child pageant thing, but there was that one really heavily publicized idol/model who got put into all kinds of more adult roles because she looked about six years older than she was. (Google reliably informs me her name is Irie Saaya.) They at least kept her out of anything overtly mature until she turned 18 though. 's still kind of creepy to have photobooks of a preteen girl in circulation tho. I'm sure there is one. May he be infested with maggots- before death. And, at the same time for the western world, we glorify Romeo and Juliet, but tend to forget that Romeo was about 17, and Juliet was about 12, set to be married off to some guy who was in like his 50s. Of course, at the time it was written, that was all perfectly acceptable. It's only been in fairly recent times that we've gotten away from the mentality of "she's a woman when she has her first cycle". Of course, me being me.. she's going to be my little girl no matter what! |
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Post by yilbber on Dec 31, 2013 18:40:50 GMT
The whole child pageantry came from Irish "shaker" Aka Gypsy customs of child marriages.. it became pageantry to lure others in it.
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Post by MacrossMike on Jan 1, 2014 0:56:02 GMT
And, at the same time for the western world, we glorify Romeo and Juliet, but tend to forget that Romeo was about 17, and Juliet was about 12, set to be married off to some guy who was in like his 50s. Of course, at the time it was written, that was all perfectly acceptable. It's only been in fairly recent times that we've gotten away from the mentality of "she's a woman when she has her first cycle". Of course, me being me.. she's going to be my little girl no matter what! 's still working that way in a couple countries... mostly in Africa, if memory serves. Age-of-Consent laws are pretty variable, even on a state-to-state basis in the US. There are some where the age of consent is actually variable, depending on who the other party is. We've had a couple low-profile cases out here in which there have been prosecutions because, even though the younger party in the relationship was over the nominal age of consent, the other party was an authority figure (as defined by the law), which invokes a different clause in the law which makes it a crime unless both parties are legally adults. America's age of consent laws are so tangled it's hard to prosecute unless it's an extreme case. Japan's are just lax, though the culture at least frowns upon legal adults dating teens... 'course they've got occasional weirdness like subsidized dating, and their gambling and prostitution laws are downright rife with big loopholes. The whole child pageantry came from Irish "shaker" Aka Gypsy customs of child marriages.. it became pageantry to lure others in it. That's bloody creepy on a lot of levels. |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 1, 2014 1:22:03 GMT
In canada teh basics are as follows
age of consent is 16 unless there is only a 5 year gap in age then it can be as low as 14.
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Post by yilbber on Jan 1, 2014 4:51:24 GMT
in the irish tradition, the girls usually 6 to 9 year olds were brought to the families in their gowns and makeup and auctioned off. they would then hold a formal marriage when she was menstrual. usually 13 back then.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 1, 2014 5:10:02 GMT
in the irish tradition, the girls usually 6 to 9 year olds were brought to the families in their gowns and makeup and auctioned off. they would then hold a formal marriage when she was menstrual. usually 13 back then. Do you have a source for this bit of lore? As an anthropology student, I find this a bit "interesting", especially since as far back as the 16th century, the Irish wealthy would arrange to have their kids meet others of the same social circle, and let the pairing happen (mostly) on its own. The lower class (the poor) generally weren't arranged marriages, but would be more of a "put the kids together and let it happen" situation, with more forceful nudging for "you need to get married. Pick someone" times. Edit: And I'm not doubting you. I'll be the first to admit that Europe isn't my specialty. I'm an early Anthro student, and my focus is in the Middle East. That's why I'm curious as to the source. |
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Post by yilbber on Jan 1, 2014 10:19:40 GMT
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 1, 2014 19:10:47 GMT
So, your source to disparage a group of people is an article written refuting the info, by someone who admits that their info may be a bit out of date? You really need to learn what a source should be. |
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Post by yilbber on Jan 2, 2014 2:01:49 GMT
just because they're law abiding now, doesn't mean they were so in the past. that " Personal " knowledge her "clan" knows only includes those born in the last 50 years.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 2, 2014 3:04:15 GMT
And at one point in time, ALL of those traditions were pretty much practiced across Europe, as well as through the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia. In fact, some of those traditions still exist, either as they were, or slightly modified.
The tradition of asking the brides father, seeking the approval. Dowries aren't TYPICAL anymore, but among the rich, there are often "job offers" that are pretty much required as the two lovebirds get together. How about the coming of age celebrations in the South, where a young woman is "presented to society", saying she's now eligible to date/marry? Or the Debutant (sp?) balls of Society, where the rich kids are brought together, to meet and mingle?
If anything, those traditions are the more likely source of the pageant programs, and can be linked to the rich in both the North and South of the USA.
How often is it that kids that grow up together/near each other end up together, often with the parents encouraging the relationship? Or how about the simple fact that instead of getting married at 16 & 17, we're seeing a massive growth in the girls who are getting knocked up, hoping that it will force the guy to stick around?
My point is, before you grasp onto one little fact, do some research, and don't try to use that to disparage a group of people. Especially if when you step back, damn near every culture has similar traditions and habits. To do otherwise is extremely ethnocentric and foolish, and makes you look pretty damned bad.
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Post by yilbber on Jan 2, 2014 7:22:44 GMT
the travellers are the ones that started that crap among young girls.
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 2, 2014 7:27:55 GMT
the travellers are the ones that started that crap among young girls. OK. OK. OK. I TRIED being nice. I tried being semi-polite about it. Obviously, that didn't get through your thick skull. So, let me be a bit more blunt. YOU, yes YOU, you mentally deficient IDIOT, are trying to pin, on ONE racial-social group, an act that was condoned and performed by just about EVERY culture. On top of that, many of these acts STILL CONTINUE, IN VARIOUS FORMS, NOW!! You do realize how flipping STUPID you're being? How ignorant, short-sighted, and here it is- RACIST that is? Pull your proverbial head out of your ass. And yes, I said proverbial head, because at this point, I'm not sure you have one. You- yes YOU- are a fucking twit! ---------------------------- Jaymz, I'm sorry, but this had gone on too long. It had to be said. Idiocy is one thing. Racism is another. |
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Post by yilbber on Jan 2, 2014 8:27:41 GMT
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 2, 2014 8:43:56 GMT
OK. Let's take this and break it down. 1) I referred to them as a racial-cultural group. Better worded would have been a socio-cultural group, but, either way, you specifically were referring to them as the IRISH Travellers. Which included, actually, TWO racial groupings, as the Romani are included in that category. Therefore, you're double the idiot, and double the racist. 2) So, you're now providing a link proving you're wrong? And backing up my point about numerous traditions? 3) In some things. I definitely wouldn't say "most", and I SURE AS SHIT wouldn't tell an Irishman that, unless you want to lose a bunch of teeth. 4) Which particular aspect are you referring to, and which group are you referring to at this point? BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front, if you didn't know) You're a twit. You're misguided attempts (repeated attempts I should say) at trying to pin various things on one socio-cultural group, with no evidence- and truthfully in SPITE of fact thrown in your face, simply reinforces the fact that you're a close minded, pig-headed racial supremacist who refuses to acknowledge FACT, and instead decides to live happily in his own little mind, contrary to the real world. You have made claims, multiple times, on this thread, trying to pin something on one particular group. You have no factual evidence to base this on. You have, in fact, been told various things showing you very probably were wrong. You instead insisted on continuing to try to blame it on this same socio-cultural group. This makes you a bigot. Since we're talking racial groupings, you're a racist. Your arguments are about as valid as these: OMG! There's a gay guy next door! My son might catch it! OMG! There's a black guy down the street! Everyone, make sure you lock up your bikes! OMG! There's a Mexican moving in across the street! Now all we'll hear is mariachi music! OMG! There's an Asian moving in on the other side of our house from the gay guy! Make sure to protect your cats! OMG! There's a Muslim! Everyone, check for bombs! **Disclaimer: I believe none of the above examples I gave. Especially the ones about Mexicans. My father-in-law listens to pretty much everything, except country. And he knows Metal and Rock better than me or my wife, and that's what we listen to primarily! As for the asians comment, I haven't had cat, but dog is delicious when cooked properly. I have yet to meet a black guy who has actually stolen a bicycle. Xbox games, yes. Bicycles, no. For the muslims, I'm a survivor of a terrorist attack, and a few montsh later I got my ass kicked helping defend a Muslim. I've met, shook hands, interviewed, etc etc etc, muslims on multiple occasions, as well as deployed to Iraq 3 times, and know for a fact that it's NOT the bulk of muslims that blow shit up. As for the gay guy comment, come on. Seriously? |
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 2, 2014 9:12:01 GMT
And funnily enough, while that is a BLOG (not an actual sourced writing), written by a PhD in sociology, who, according to the "about", has been published in all sorts of news sources and "various academic journals"... the only things I can find in my university library database with her name are A book review (she did the review, not the book), her name on a list of editors (context magazine), and an article she did about Colbert's interview of another sociologist. Then, there is a review of her book, as well as 2 articles that mention her book: ****Review by Janet Ingraham Dwyer What is the allure of competitive extra-curricular activities for young children? Given the significant family investment of time and money, what are the net benefits for participants? For her first book, sociologist Friedman (Malcolm Wiener Ctr. for Social Policy; John F. Kennedy Sch. of Government, Harvard Univ.) performed an in-depth qualitative study of representative soccer teams, chess clubs, and dance studios; interviewed dozens of children, parents, and coaches; and observed competitions and practices over 16 months of fieldwork. She found that at the elementary level, children's participation is largely parent driven in quest of what she calls "Competitive Kid Capital." This capital consists of children's acquisition of strategic skills and attitudes, including the importance of winning, recovery from loss, and the ability to perform within time limits, under stress, and while being observed and evaluated. VERDICT Given the considerable competitive pressure on even young children to prepare for elite colleges and lucrative careers, this study is timely and provocative. It is, however, targeted more toward scholars of childhood and family than to parents and other lay readers. Purchase accordingly. Nonspecialists who have read both Amy Chua's Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother and Lenore Skenazy's Free-Range Kids: How To Raise Safe, Self-Reliant Children (Without Going Nuts with Worry ) may find it of interest.--Janet Ingraham Dwyer, State Lib. of Ohio, Columbus Friedman, Hilary Levey. Playing To Win: Raising Children in a Competitive Culture. Univ. of California. 2013. 312p. notes. bibliog. index. ISBN 9780520276758. $65; pap. ISBN 9780520276765. $29.95; ebk. ISBN 9780520956698. SOC SCI**** I didn't see anything in there about pageants, did you? Her claims, unsourced, are worth toilet paper. Especially since there was none of her WORK published in any academic journals, and the only "work" that was published in a professional journal was a REVIEW OF SOMEONE ELSE!! In short: worthless |
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 2, 2014 13:41:59 GMT
Ok if we are going to continue this line of discussion, and use that term loosely at this point, both sides need to supply proper, vetted, sources....that means blogs are out, unless they direct you to proper sources. Blogs are opinion not fact unless they themselves provide facts.
If one cannot provide "facts" then they need to stop making claims and not actually backing them up.
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Post by yilbber on Jan 2, 2014 15:44:08 GMT
her views are based on France banning pageantry of anyone under the age of 16. and the view of modern feminisims to stop sexualizing young children.
It's exploitation of women.
As for the Baby Craze, It's mostly historical.
Maybe you support Toddlers and Tiara, Gypsy Weddings, and all sorts of old world crap, but many don't.
and note: there are plenty of women and parents who See nothing wrong with it, and a minority who do.
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Post by Jaymz on Jan 2, 2014 16:19:26 GMT
It is my opinion that Toddlers and Tiaras should every one of those parents losing their custody of their children and it's spin off Honey Boo Boo is just a sad sad example of how low we as a society have fallen....
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Shini
New Member
Posts: 22 
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Post by Shini on Jan 2, 2014 19:46:01 GMT
I hate Toddlers and Tiara, and dance moms and sixteen and pregnant.
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Post by ninjabunny on Jan 2, 2014 19:48:09 GMT
It is my opinion that Toddlers and Tiaras should every one of those parents losing their custody of their children and it's spin off Honey Boo Boo is just a sad sad example of how low we as a society have fallen.... jaymz the show is not a good example of that area of life. A lot of these kids do like it, even when they get older they stop or keep going to do real pageants. I have said I would stay out but I find yibber social ideology on par with a Klansmen. |
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Post by yilbber on Jan 3, 2014 2:19:06 GMT
wait, disliking gypsies and "old" english customs makes me a klansman?
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Post by joshuagoliath on Jan 3, 2014 2:43:48 GMT
wait, disliking gypsies and "old" english customs makes me a klansman? No, he was saying your attempts to lay it all at one socio-cultural grouping, without any valid reasoning, puts you on par with Klansmen. Racists get equated with racists. Or if you'd rather I be politically correct, to help protect your feelings, "Ethnocentric assholes get put on the same level as other ethnocentric assholes" |
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